holy shield in 4.2, help me understand.

90 Draenei Paladin
10210
If that's the case, then none of a tanks gear matters either.

The argument you are making is essentially small increases to survivability don't matter, and don't add up to something significant. There's a recent people min-max, especially tanks. There's a reason we try to squeak out every tiny bit of avoidance, or armor, or block, or health. Because it matters.

Trying to say it doesn't matter is ridiculous. That's like saying the armor difference between DK's and Paladins/Warriors doesn't matter, when clearly it does.
90 Human Paladin
17750
No, it's not being argued that SoI contributes nothing, that's the strawman you keep throwing out there.

The point is that SoI's value is

(1) Greatly overstated looking simply at aggregate healing numbers
(2) Is not great enough to change healing patterns (unless you think your healers actually react differently based on a proc heal the size of a HoT)
(3) Because of the two above points, the effect SoI actually has, realistically, on tank balance is more than "none" but close to "miniscule".

You're right, we do look to min-max our survivability, nobody's denying that. But claiming SoI has any really meaningful effect on class balance (Especially compared to WoG, which is superior in basically every important way) is silly.

*EDIT* Brohk, what's up with his one random holy light?
Edited by Lesaberisa on 5/15/2011 9:13 PM PDT
85 Human Warrior
2375
13% more damage is a bit much. If it was 6% reduded damage it would be balanced but, this is too far.
05/15/2011 09:09 PMPosted by Lesaberisa
*EDIT* Brohk, what's up with his one random holy light?


I dunno o_o
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
05/15/2011 08:55 PMPosted by Caeless
You have never played a healer with even a single hot. I can tell.


Insults based on your ignorance of another poster will only come back to bite you.

But yes, Dari has played a healer with hots before. I know Dari used to play a priest and currently mains a druid.

This reminds me of a lawyer in the John Travolta film a civil action. This lawyer in the film teaches law students and he said something along the lines of "NEVER ask a witness a question you do not already know the answer to."
Edited by Celyndrashad on 5/15/2011 9:23 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10020
If that's the case, then none of a tanks gear matters either.

The argument you are making is essentially small increases to survivability don't matter, and don't add up to something significant. There's a recent people min-max, especially tanks. There's a reason we try to squeak out every tiny bit of avoidance, or armor, or block, or health. Because it matters.

Trying to say it doesn't matter is ridiculous. That's like saying the armor difference between DK's and Paladins/Warriors doesn't matter, when clearly it does.

It's actually a very sound argument.

It boils down to healer mana, healer throughput, and EH. When you start out raiding and healers can oom, any healing is worthwhile. It is very valuable. However, healers get gear and stop ooming while tank healing. That has happened through the last few expansions. They just don't oom while healing tanks unless they burn really expensive heals; with a bit of gear, even that doesn't hold true. EH takes over and when that happens, small residual heals do very little.

The reason DK and pally / warrior armor matters is because of EH. You do realize that a DK only takes about 4 to 5% additional damage (post-armor and mitigation) compared to the others, right? Our heal is for 29% of the previous damage. Even with 50% overheal while using DS horrendously every 10 seconds, the DK is getting more healing than is necessary. Why aren't DK's OP because of it? The reason it isn't OP is because the healers stop ooming while tank healing. EH takes over. That is the reason DKs can struggle in heroic raids. It only becomes useful when the content is trivial enough that the healer can sit there being bored or the healers are all focused on raid healing (That's right; that is exactly where DKs become OP). EH really is at the heart of the issue.

Small boosts to EH are important. Small cuts to healing, when your healer can't oom and has nothing to do, do very little in this game. There has only been one difficult encounter where tank self-healing was truly powerful. That was H-General in Ulduar. Healers could oom and that self-healing counted for a lot. (Not that paladins could really do it; they were bad on that fight). However, a DK really trivialized it. They aren't wrong, small heals do very little in the long term. Popping a large heal after burst is helpful. Small heals do very little unless all your healers are bombing the raid. Healers don't oom and that negates the power of self-healing. The reason avoidance and mastery are still important is because when the tank can last 3 hits or so, there is a really high probability of avoidance or block. The probability of hitting your EH is extremely low, which is helpful to your healers.
Edited by Dosvidaniya on 5/15/2011 9:34 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
I probably butchered that quote. Your lawyers will have little to work with.
86 Dwarf Paladin
12935
Nerf SoI so that it doesn't provide health return then. I use it maybe 10% of the time and only when I get low on mana due to judgement missing. It's a terrible seal to use and tanks shouldn't be using it. Don't nerf an ability that a tank should be using (Holy Shield) to compensate for some bad people overusing a different ability.
05/15/2011 11:37 PMPosted by Arienna
It's a terrible seal to use and tanks shouldn't be using it.


Except it's not.
85 Tauren Warrior
7495
This is how Blizzard balances. They bring a higher class down to match lower ones as opposed to elevating everyone else.

I seriously don't understand the QQ tho to be honest. You'll soak 30% with your blocks, same as warriors, but you'll get 5% more chance to block making your cap easier to reach and allowing you to put more points into avoidance or health.
They're bringing paladins down closer to warrior levels, but you're still going to be a better tank.

I've seen paladins easily single tank Omnitron... as big as that may make your epeen thats probably not working as intended.
90 Human Paladin
17765
You have never played a healer with even a single hot. I can tell.


Lol no - I've healed on every healing spec available, 3 of them in progression raids.

You having SoI up alone isn't going to make the healer choose to Holy Light over Divine Light. That's a choice dictated by many many many many other more important factors. I can't imagine why you'd think it would, and then tell me that I've never healed before.

This is how Blizzard balances. They bring a higher class down to match lower ones as opposed to elevating everyone else.

I seriously don't understand the QQ tho to be honest. You'll soak 30% with your blocks, same as warriors, but you'll get 5% more chance to block making your cap easier to reach and allowing you to put more points into avoidance or health.
They're bringing paladins down closer to warrior levels, but you're still going to be a better tank.

I've seen paladins easily single tank Omnitron... as big as that may make your epeen thats probably not working as intended.


There's nothing particularly impressive about single tanking Omnotron. The only part where tank damage even matter on that coordination check is the one swing Arcanotron might get after he spawns a Power Generator or if Chemical Cloud gets spawned or you. Or both. THe rest of the tank damage on that fight is a joke.
Edited by Darielle on 5/16/2011 12:40 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
17205
They're bringing paladins down closer to warrior levels, but you're still going to be a better tank.


That's not what everyone I've seen has been sayin'. You know, with actual numbers. Are you ready to be "brought down" next, warriors? What fun this game is!
85 Troll Priest
2335
05/15/2011 07:20 AMPosted by Fleigmus
Trust me, I know.

Well in that case.....
85 Blood Elf Paladin
7135
Is Blizz just doing this to anger us? If so, it's working well. Paladin tanks seem fine to me. I was having fun with Word of Glory but I'm ok with it being on a 20 sec cd. Honestly, it just makes my healers job harder.

If they have a problem with paladin tanks, then boost the other tanks, but why nerf me? What do they stand to gain? Seriously. It just seems like lazy balancing (nerf to pally instead of boost to other tanks' tools) that is going to make my mitigation underpowered either now or in the near future. I'm barely hanging on in a fully equip'd, decently skilled raid group on reg Nef, how am I going to break into heroics with these nerf trends? Without leaving my guild for some unfriendly elitist people?

Give warriors and druids more range taunt love, druids an AoE stun of some variety and DKs whatever it is that makes them happy! Don't nerf me bro. Be nice and let the game stay fun (challenging but doable) for me and all my friends, please? I've already had to stop playing with all of my friends from WotLK because they don't make the Cata cut. Don't make me have "the talk" with more friends. :(
90 Human Paladin
17765
Give warriors and druids more range taunt love


Wat?
85 Worgen Warrior
6685
05/16/2011 01:18 AMPosted by Darielle
Give warriors and druids more range taunt love


Wat?


She means something like Deathgrip and Avengers shield. Something that will allow a tank to can threat quick before combat. Though Warriors have Heroic Throw and I believe Feral Druids use Fearie Fire.

Onto the topic: I must've missed why SoL was brought up in the first place but I don't see how it's relevant to the shield change. Paladins are going to gain more block percentage and lose their block value. Which is stupid because I've heard tanks reaching the block "cap" already.

Now if SoL is factored in because of survivability that is a different story all together. From my experience I have only used SoL once and that was on an Atrameades attempt. I only got healed for 750 at random and at times 1430. The heal isn't that great....at all. Unless you run with people in heroic gear, running high grade heroic raids , which then I can see happening, the heal from SoL will only help the tank stay alive as long as the healers don't ##@! up. In Heroic dungeons I can sorta see it work on on fights like Chimaeron but not as effective as it's made out to be.
And for the Blood Craze argument: You cannot say it's not helpful. It's a passive heal given to you on chance you take any kind of damage. Sure you spend talents on it but it's not going to kill anyone if you have to skip talents to get it.

Regardless, unless you are in an extreme raiding guild focused on downing heroic mode bosses I cannot see the significance of SoL being useful. Cause lets be honest....

..The Holy Shield change will still suck!
85 Human Paladin
7460
Nerf SoI so that it doesn't provide health return then. I use it maybe 10% of the time and only when I get low on mana due to judgement missing. It's a terrible seal to use and tanks shouldn't be using it. Don't nerf an ability that a tank should be using (Holy Shield) to compensate for some bad people overusing a different ability.


If you have a way of increasing your healing, and a healer and some dps have gone down during a progression fight, you're going to use it especially if vengeance has given you enough of a threat lead that no dps will jump your threat without you knowing.

Nerfing holy Shield might to some degree might be ok, but chaning it to an additional +5% block introduces other issues. It's like the devs brought in their kid siblings in for a while to see what kind of silly mischief they could get into when changing a class

A projected increase of about 10% extra damage will definitely make things "interesting"
and I'm using the supposed Chinese curse meaning.
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