holy shield in 4.2, help me understand.

1 Draenei Warrior
0
05/15/2011 08:41 PMPosted by Caeless
Off-tanking Cho'gall after adds are down, off-tanking while waiting for adds to spawn on maloriak. Off-tanking on Nefarian, off-tanking stormlings on Al'akir.


On Cho'gall, shadow's orders will take too much health off, smart aoe heals will target you and heal you anyway, even if healers don't. There's basically 0 damage done to you while waiting for adds to spawn on Maloriak (assuming good interrupts), so any self healing is completely meaningless. For 25 nef, the third tank is pretty much useless in p3 anyway, if you're really *that* worried about that tiny bit of healing, let him die (and on 10 nef you only have 2 tanks). :P

If you just go over the fights quickly:

Magmaw (Assuming 1 tank on magmaw, which is how everybody on my server does it, dunno about others): Too much tank damage for SoI to be significant.
Omnotron: I guess it could be decent here
Chimaeron: Pointless. The break tank goes over 10k with 1 heal and the DA tank should be at full. WoG is quite useful here though.
Atramedes: Sort of useful I guess, since his tank damage is pretty low
Maloriak: Largely useless, a lot of the tank damage in this fight comes in spikes
Nef: Largely useless, they just hit too hard for soi to be a significant amount of healing (in 10 man this may be a little more useful since healers are spread more thin)
Halfus: Largely useless. During the start of the fight your healers are having a heart attack from the amount of damage dealt (meaning soi contributes very little to overall healing) and by the end they fall asleep because there's nothing to do.
Twin dragons: I guess it's pretty decent here again, their tank damage isn't the highest
Council: Mediocre. A lot of tank damage here comes in bursts again.
Cho'gal: Useless during flame's orders because you'll be healed like crazy, aoe smart heals will hit you during shadow's orders and you'll get topped off anyway, even if you're not currently tanking him.

Either way, SoI is hardly anything defining for paladin. It's healing isn't significant enough on most challenging content to contribute much besides meter padding. On fights where tank damage is very predictable and slow, I could see some use to it, since it means tanks aren't constantly (over)healed to full. It's also worth noting that it's much more powerful in 10 than 25.

Honestly, if you're gonna name anything as giving paladins an edge in progression raids, especially before the patch, it would be divine guardian. A raidwide cooldown like that is extremely powerful in many current fights.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15060
Using Seal of Insight means losing somewhere between 1.2k and 1.5k DPS; it's a bit hard to filter out of Theck's math, so those were the high and low end assumptions. You get maybe half of a single Druid HoT in exchange.

You're not saving anybody's mana, nor your own life, during a boss attempt with half a Druid HoT. If you're seriously claiming "But once the healers are all dead, Paladins can use it to stay alive longer!" then DKs need to be nerfed TO THE GROUND since they self-heal even better when healers are dead.

Or, you know, we could recognize that my last statement was ridiculous and not balance around how long you take to finally die once the raid is mid-wipe.
85 Tauren Warrior
7495
05/16/2011 12:37 AMPosted by Darielle
There's nothing particularly impressive about single tanking Omnotron. The only part where tank damage even matter on that coordination check is the one swing Arcanotron might get after he spawns a Power Generator or if Chemical Cloud gets spawned or you. Or both. THe rest of the tank damage on that fight is a joke.

Just saying I've seen plenty of Paladin tanks doing it with ease... not too many non-paladins pulling it off.

05/16/2011 12:55 AMPosted by Kelvara
They're bringing paladins down closer to warrior levels, but you're still going to be a better tank.


That's not what everyone I've seen has been sayin'. You know, with actual numbers. Are you ready to be "brought down" next, warriors? What fun this game is!

Warriors have been hit with the nerf stick before, and it will happen again. Are guilds suddenly going to just dump their MT paladins because of some speculative numbers that aren't even live yet? I doubt it. If they do then that guild was looking for an excuse to dump that tank anyhow.

PEBKAC. Promise.


If by that you mean between the paladin's keyboard and chair then you're right.

WoG nerf didn't set any guilds back, and neither will this. Paladin's are still going to be great tanks, and quite frankly if you can't work around a class re-balancing like that then you should probably quit and go play dps.

Not to mention that this change may not even go live. Like a shot in the Dr's office this is probably not going to hurt as bad as it looks like it will.


My origional post wasn't meant to be inflamitory. To the contrary it's meant to say that you're going to be ok.
Ill leave it at this. Stop crying paladins. You' still are and are still going to be wonderful and youre still going the best choice for MT.
Community Manager
Protection

Holy Shield now increases block chance by 5% while active, instead of increasing the amount of damage blocked by 10%.

why, just why. now we are being punished for stacking mastery?


We are in the process of trying some different numbers for various talents and mechanics on the PTR, with the goal of making it harder (or impossible) to cap mastery. What we want to avoid is making mastery worthless or causing other undesirable effects.

If we are successful, we will adjust the other tanks to be relatively balanced with paladins again.

If we aren't successful, we know what the fall back position is (basically what we have now).

At this time, we're in the middle of examining this and other changes. Please be reminded that we do read the forums, and appreciate feedback. A dispassionate perspective goes a long way.
Edited by Kaivax on 5/16/2011 3:21 PM PDT
87 Tauren Warrior
8105
Protection

Holy Shield now increases block chance by 5% while active, instead of increasing the amount of damage blocked by 10%.

why, just why. now we are being punished for stacking mastery?


We are in the process of trying some different numbers for various talents and mechanics on the PTR, with the goal of making it harder (or impossible) to cap mastery. What we want to avoid is making mastery worthless or causing other undesirable effects.

If we are successful, we will adjust the other tanks to be relatively balanced with paladins again.

If we aren't successful, we know what the fall back position is (basically what we have now).

At this time, we're in the middle of examining this and other changes. Please be reminded that we do read the forums, and appreciate feedback. A dispassionate perspective goes a long way.


why not just make paladin, warrior mastery be negatively affected by avoidance like you have dk's mastery?
100 Human Paladin
20740
So should we assume the paladin mastery scaling will be toned down from 2.25%/point? Otherwise this change completely undermines the stated goal.

I agree people should take the "long view" but given your stated design goal (which is what many of us assumed it would be), this change is baffling.
100 Dwarf Death Knight
15320
I'm... rather bewildered as well. Unless there's a complete change to Prot mastery that hasn't been revealed yet this change goes completely against what you said you want it to do.
05/16/2011 03:20 PMPosted by Mnemoniq
I'm not quite sure how making capping mastery easier is going to make it harder/impossible to cap mastery but ok.


What this guy said.


Was typing this but quoting it is easier.
100 Dwarf Death Knight
15320
Seriously, I'm having flashbacks to the Daxx talk. My brain just plain hurts now.
100 Dwarf Death Knight
15320
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2140511400?page=2
100 Night Elf Druid
11935
My guess is that he's talking about the changes in the next PTR build.
85 Human Paladin
11090
05/16/2011 03:19 PMPosted by Ðemolition
I'm not quite sure how making capping mastery easier is going to make it harder/impossible to cap mastery but ok.


Put me down for this, although I imagine we have not seen the last of the changes to Paladins on the PTR.
I'm confused they don't want mastery worthless but they made our mastery worse with this holy shield change, or is he saying they don't want people capping mastery period so plus block mastery could never work in the way they want the game.
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