holy shield in 4.2, help me understand.

05/16/2011 03:51 PMPosted by Asthas
The most likely explanation is that the PTR doesn't revolve entirely around Prot Paladins


Those are dangerous words!
100 Night Elf Warrior
17635
05/16/2011 03:58 PMPosted by Barwicka
The most likely explanation is that the PTR doesn't revolve entirely around Prot Paladins


Those are dangerous words!


Too much time spent on prot paladins leaves less time for the real tanks.

You know, fury warriors.


I've never healed, and I don't know or care about healer mechanics as long as I don't die. And since I am almost always the last to die (unless Magmaw breaks free of the one chain holding him and eats me), neither myself nor my healers are likely the culprits for our lack of content cleared.


My point was only that healers have collectively had about 3 or 4 mastery changes.


And still need more, ****ing Illuminated Healing.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
We are in the process of trying some different numbers for various talents and mechanics on the PTR, with the goal of making it harder (or impossible) to cap mastery. What we want to avoid is making mastery worthless or causing other undesirable effects.


Okay thats fine. Problem is increasing our block % makes us cap that much sooner...and with less mitigation to boot.

Would doing something along the following be a better design?

Allow overflow to go into block value for paladins and crit block for warriors (other than when shield block is up)

Decrease paladin % gain per mastery and allow mastery to increase both block% and value like how it increases block% and crit block for warriors.

Make boss expertise affect block and to a larger percentage than dodge or parry.

Change or remove base mastery. Maybe replace it with more base dodge/parry? If im calculating it right adding 3.6% to both base dodge and parry would leave us with the same Damage reduction as the lost 18% block.

Probably will not be a popular idea but maybe after some %block apply a DR? Say 60% block(random number)?

If we are successful, we will adjust the other tanks to be relatively balanced with paladins again.

If we aren't successful, we know what the fall back position is (basically what we have now).

At this time, we're in the middle of examining this and other changes. Please be reminded that we do read the forums, and appreciate feedback. A dispassionate perspective goes a long way.


Trying to be. My attitude is its way too soon to have a sky is falling attitude.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 5/16/2011 4:08 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
13020
Protection

Holy Shield now increases block chance by 5% while active, instead of increasing the amount of damage blocked by 10%.

why, just why. now we are being punished for stacking mastery?


We are in the process of trying some different numbers for various talents and mechanics on the PTR, with the goal of making it harder (or impossible) to cap mastery. What we want to avoid is making mastery worthless or causing other undesirable effects.

If we are successful, we will adjust the other tanks to be relatively balanced with paladins again.

If we aren't successful, we know what the fall back position is (basically what we have now).

At this time, we're in the middle of examining this and other changes. Please be reminded that we do read the forums, and appreciate feedback. A dispassionate perspective goes a long way.


That is the wrong way to go about this.

If your goal is to make it harder to cap mastery, then you're looking at CTC, which is derived from the block rate, not the block value.

Your stated goals: Make it harder to cap mastery, and keep mastery from becoming worthless.
The outcome of this change: Makes it easier to cap mastery, and lowers the value of mastery.

I'm sure you can see, looking objectively, that this change accomplishes the exact opposite of your stated goals.

If your goal is to make it harder to cap mastery, and give mastery more value, then you should look making the current cap for mastery on paladins a soft cap rather than a hard cap. Paladins are currently the only Class that has a hard cap on mastery that is reachable. Druids and DKS just build bigger and bigger shields. Warriors who manage to reach full combat table coverage get inreased chance to crit block with more mastery. Paladins get to full CTC, and mastery is useless beyond that. We're the only class that has a point where mastery becomes completely useless. In fact we may be the only spec period, which has a hard cap on mastery, and this change puts the hard cap closer for every paladin.

A logical change would be something along the lines of "once 102.4% ctc is reached, further mastery adds 1% block value per point of mastery." That would allow mastery to retain some value for paladins all the way out to something close to 18,000 mastery rating, which is about where the warrior hard cap is too, and is completely out of reach of any gear in the current expansion.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
05/16/2011 04:08 PMPosted by Dämmerung
A logical change would be something along the lines of "once 102.4% ctc is reached, further mastery adds 1% block value per point of mastery." That would allow mastery to retain some value for paladins all the way out to something close to 18,000 mastery rating, which is about where the warrior hard cap is too, and is completely out of reach of any gear in the current expansion.


I thought the warrior hard cap was 58.67mastery or 10517.76 rating?
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
05/16/2011 03:47 PMPosted by Feanorion
If there is such a Mastery change in the works, releasing this Holy Shield change was completely pointless, meaningless, and wasteful without the corresponding Mastery change. What kind of data can be gleaned from the Holy Shield change in a vacuum? What useful comparative information can be taken from just a fraction of a change?


None, but it might be worth it, just to push it onto the PTR and make sure it works, code wise, or something


fakeedit: kalisti beat me to it.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6610
I have no doubt warriors would comment if they had some significant change occur to them without compensation as paladins seem to have. as for the blue post, "Make it harder to cap mastery" by giving us 5% more block chance? how does that make sense?

Edit something along the lines of Dämmerung's Suggestion makes a lot more sense, letting us not be able to cap mastery, making it useful still after the cap is hit, or even doing something along the lines of

Mastery Gives 2.00% Chance to block and some % extra damage blocked, with that % doubling after the cap is reached, is it boring? its less random then crit blocks, but in all its a far more interesting and useful change then what they did now which only works against there objective.
Edited by Xanradin on 5/16/2011 4:24 PM PDT
100 Night Elf Druid
18535
So screw every tank over because paladin's mastery is so good? Wow

Though maybe a little too late since Bear tanks got screwed with Frenzied Regen nerf - awesome job developers.
Edited by Nightsbane on 5/16/2011 4:19 PM PDT
48 Gnome Priest
360
05/16/2011 04:08 PMPosted by Dämmerung
A logical change would be something along the lines of "once 102.4% ctc is reached, further mastery adds 1% block value per point of mastery." That would allow mastery to retain some value for paladins all the way out to something close to 18,000 mastery rating, which is about where the warrior hard cap is too, and is completely out of reach of any gear in the current expansion.


I agree that this would be the most straight forward approach. The only thing I don't like about it is that it's kind of boring plus paladins are slightly disadvantaged below the CTC cap.

I'm also not sure basing it on the CTC cap would be the easiest to implement or explain. The extra blocking may just come from Mastery in parallel to block % much like warriors. Again though it's just a little too much like warriors.
85 Human Paladin
6435
05/16/2011 04:17 PMPosted by Nightsbane
So screw every tank over because paladin's mastery is so good? Wow


I'm not sure where you pulled that idea....
100 Human Paladin
18500
Presumably he is reading

If we are successful, we will adjust the other tanks to be relatively balanced with paladins again.


to mean a general nerf of tanks
100 Night Elf Druid
18535
So screw every tank over because paladin's mastery is so good? Wow


I'm not sure where you pulled that idea....


That you can hard cap your wonderful block? Try reading the Blue post - who can I blame for screwing other tank's mastery ? Oh yeah Prot Paladins

Not that it matters Bear druids got a wonderful 15% health nerf on frenzied regen.
Edited by Nightsbane on 5/16/2011 4:21 PM PDT
85 Human Paladin
6435
Presumably he is reading

If we are successful, we will adjust the other tanks to be relatively balanced with paladins again.


to mean a general nerf of tanks


Still not sure how that equals out to "screwing over every other tank." If we all get nerfed we are still all in the same place just lower.

That you can hard cap your wonderful block? Try reading the Blue post - who can I blame for screwing other tank's mastery ? Oh yeah Prot Paladins


Okay? Read above.
Edited by Xayton on 5/16/2011 4:21 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
12965
So, in short, they're tinkering with the Paladin mastery to keep us from hard-capping mastery and just happened to be between iterations when the latest PTR build was pushed out.

So long as we're not stuck waiting 2-3 weeks for the next PTR build, I can live with that.
90 Human Paladin
13020
05/16/2011 04:11 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
A logical change would be something along the lines of "once 102.4% ctc is reached, further mastery adds 1% block value per point of mastery." That would allow mastery to retain some value for paladins all the way out to something close to 18,000 mastery rating, which is about where the warrior hard cap is too, and is completely out of reach of any gear in the current expansion.


I thought the warrior hard cap was 58.67mastery or 10517.76 rating?


It is, I just eyeballed it using a 1-1 ratio rather than actual math. The point remains the same, at no point in this expansion will anyone get near that amount of mastery, so they get continued value out of mastery. Paladins hit a hard cap then reforge and regem.
100 Night Elf Druid
18535
Presumably he is reading




to mean a general nerf of tanks


Still not sure how that equals out to "screwing over every other tank." If we all get nerfed we are still all in the same place just lower.

That you can hard cap your wonderful block? Try reading the Blue post - who can I blame for screwing other tank's mastery ? Oh yeah Prot Paladins


Okay? Read above.


And what part of getting screwed over is hard to understand. To put it simply all content will be much harder on our healers, dpsers, etc. if all tanks get nerfed. Paladins can hard cap mastery - awesome. The other tanks cannot so everyone loses (SCREWED OVER) - get it? Especially for the lower level content.

Now the higher (Firelands) tier content will feel just like this content if the nerfs are bad enough, awesome.
Edited by Nightsbane on 5/16/2011 4:24 PM PDT
90 Human Warrior
15415
Protection

Holy Shield now increases block chance by 5% while active, instead of increasing the amount of damage blocked by 10%.

why, just why. now we are being punished for stacking mastery?


We are in the process of trying some different numbers for various talents and mechanics on the PTR, with the goal of making it harder (or impossible) to cap mastery. What we want to avoid is making mastery worthless or causing other undesirable effects.

If we are successful, we will adjust the other tanks to be relatively balanced with paladins again.

If we aren't successful, we know what the fall back position is (basically what we have now).

At this time, we're in the middle of examining this and other changes. Please be reminded that we do read the forums, and appreciate feedback. A dispassionate perspective goes a long way.


Forgive me if I am completely misunderstanding this, but isn't the change you are making actually going to make mastery useless sooner? Once a Pally is at 102.4% block/avoidance, mastery is going to be useless to them. So instead of having Holy Shield Block for more damage, you are moving them 5% closer to the point where mastery is useless?

This seems like a step backwards from what you are trying to accomplish.
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