holy shield in 4.2, help me understand.

Hey, you guys hear about the changes for 4.3?

Prot Paladins will no longer be able to equip shields. Holy Shield has been replaced with Crucifix Shield, which will surround the Paladin with a barrier of whirling crucifixes. Shield of the Righteous has been replaced with [Life Strike], A deadly attack which deals 150% weapon damage, plus 330, healing you for 20% of the damage you have sustained during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of 7% of maximum health).


Wow, I can hardly wait.
90 Human Paladin
0
So, in short, they're tinkering with the Paladin mastery to keep us from hard-capping mastery and just happened to be between iterations when the latest PTR build was pushed out.

So long as we're not stuck waiting 2-3 weeks for the next PTR build, I can live with that.


Well, the concern is stemming from the fact that the explanation that we're being given doesn't line up with the facts on the ground. There could be several explanations for this.

1) The CMs are operating with few actual facts on the situation and are just trying to put out the fires. This is actually a pretty common occurance, especially with paladins, the HP change of 4.0.6 was hilarious when they got caught.

2) There was a miscommunication between the devs and the CM. Basically the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

3) The devs have no clue what they're doing, and are implementing changes to the ptr that they do not understand.

85 Human Paladin
6435
05/16/2011 04:23 PMPosted by Nightsbane
And what part of getting screwed over is hard to understand.


Lol your definition of "getting screwed over" is laughable. Any changes they make to Druids will be very minor, if at all. And they if anything they would buff DKs. The only class that would get some sort of nerf would be Warriors. But you know what, it's called tank balance.

05/16/2011 04:23 PMPosted by Nightsbane
Especially for the lower level content.

05/16/2011 04:25 PMPosted by Feanorion
If we all get nerfed to hell and back, how are we supposed to clear old content?


1) Lower level content isn't where balance is important
2) You will out gear any of the content that you would ever want to do
3) ????
4) The sky is falling omg!!!!
Edited by Xayton on 5/16/2011 4:33 PM PDT
100 Human Paladin
20170
Forgive me if I am completely misunderstanding this, but isn't the change you are making actually going to make mastery useless sooner? Once a Pally is at 102.4% block/avoidance, mastery is going to be useless to them. So instead of having Holy Shield Block for more damage, you are moving them 5% closer to the point where mastery is useless?

This seems like a step backwards from what you are trying to accomplish.


Presumably there are more changes coming - probably changing our mastery to give less block chance per point but increase block value or something like that. On it's own, this change undermines the design goal, though, yes.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Lol your definition of "getting screwed over" is laughable. It's called tank balance.

Having our 3rd tank CD effectively half removed is getting pretty screwed over.
100 Night Elf Warrior
18190
So, in short, they're tinkering with the Paladin mastery to keep us from hard-capping mastery and just happened to be between iterations when the latest PTR build was pushed out.

So long as we're not stuck waiting 2-3 weeks for the next PTR build, I can live with that.


Well, the concern is stemming from the fact that the explanation that we're being given doesn't line up with the facts on the ground. There could be several explanations for this.

1) The CMs are operating with few actual facts on the situation and are just trying to put out the fires. This is actually a pretty common occurance, especially with paladins, the HP change of 4.0.6 was hilarious when they got caught.

2) There was a miscommunication between the devs and the CM. Basically the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

3) The devs have no clue what they're doing, and are implementing changes to the ptr that they do not understand.


Or 4) They actually aren't out to get you, and this PTR push was actually in the middle of a set of changes to try for Paladins.
90 Human Paladin
0


Still not sure how that equals out to "screwing over every other tank." If we all get nerfed we are still all in the same place just lower.



Okay? Read above.


And what part of getting screwed over is hard to understand. To put it simply all content will be much harder on our healers, dpsers, etc. if all tanks get nerfed. Paladins can hard cap mastery - awesome. The other tanks cannot so everyone loses (SCREWED OVER) - get it? Especially for the lower level content.

Now the higher (Firelands) tier content will feel just like this content if the nerfs are bad enough, awesome.


Being able to hard cap mastery isn't really a good thing. If things persist as they currently are, paladins will be crying about all the mastery on gear in the next few tiers because they get no benefit from it. It'd be like all druid tier gear having spell pen on it.
90 Human Paladin
12965
05/16/2011 04:23 PMPosted by Nightsbane
And what part of getting screwed over is hard to understand. To put it simply all content will be much harder on our healers, dpsers, etc. if all tanks get nerfed. Paladins can hard cap mastery - awesome. The other tanks cannot so everyone loses (SCREWED OVER) - get it? Especially for the lower level content.


Proof that clueless people can still get high-level gear.

News flash: If they nerf all of the tank classes, they'll also nerf the content as needed. Also, lower-level content is so undertuned you frequently don't even need a real tank for it.
85 Human Paladin
6435
05/16/2011 04:33 PMPosted by Arielle
Lol your definition of "getting screwed over" is laughable. It's called tank balance.

Having our 3rd tank CD effectively half removed is getting pretty screwed over.


Mastery changes = Cooldowns? That's new.
05/16/2011 04:34 PMPosted by Asthas
Or 4) They actually aren't out to get you, and this PTR push was actually in the middle of a set of changes to try for Paladins.



Those are dangerous words!
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
05/16/2011 04:35 PMPosted by Xayton

Having our 3rd tank CD effectively half removed is getting pretty screwed over.


Mastery changes = Cooldowns? That's new.

Considering Nights was explicitly referring to FR being changed as part of the /boggle.
100 Night Elf Warrior
18190
05/16/2011 04:36 PMPosted by Barwicka
Or 4) They actually aren't out to get you, and this PTR push was actually in the middle of a set of changes to try for Paladins.



Those are dangerous words!


I know, I know, I'm sorry.

I forget that PTR is Paladin Test Realm.
85 Human Death Knight
12405
05/16/2011 04:35 PMPosted by Xayton

Having our 3rd tank CD effectively half removed is getting pretty screwed over.


Mastery changes = Cooldowns? That's new.


They changed Frenzied Regen. If it's part of the overall tank balance changes, I don't know, but it's a pretty severe nerf and doesn't really target the problem.
90 Human Paladin
0


Well, the concern is stemming from the fact that the explanation that we're being given doesn't line up with the facts on the ground. There could be several explanations for this.

1) The CMs are operating with few actual facts on the situation and are just trying to put out the fires. This is actually a pretty common occurance, especially with paladins, the HP change of 4.0.6 was hilarious when they got caught.

2) There was a miscommunication between the devs and the CM. Basically the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

3) The devs have no clue what they're doing, and are implementing changes to the ptr that they do not understand.


Or 4) They actually aren't out to get you, and this PTR push was actually in the middle of a set of changes to try for Paladins.


Except that the change runs 100% diametrically opposed to the explanation. It's akin to the Historic Preservation Society looking at an old building and saying "We set it on fire becaue we wanted to preserve the building for future generations." If the goal is to make it harder to cap mastery, then making it easier to cap mastery does nothing to accomplish that goal. In fact, it hinders that goal.
85 Human Paladin
6435



Mastery changes = Cooldowns? That's new.


They changed Frenzied Regen. If it's part of the overall tank balance changes, I don't know, but it's a pretty severe nerf and doesn't really target the problem.


It probably isn't based on the wording of the blue post. We are also not balanced around old content so the FR nerf is probably to balance druids in Firelands.
Edited by Xayton on 5/16/2011 4:44 PM PDT
100 Human Warrior
16820

Presumably there are more changes coming - probably changing our mastery to give less block chance per point but increase block value or something like that. On it's own, this change undermines the design goal, though, yes.


It still seems like a backward change to give you guys more block chance from an ability and then reduce block chance given by mastery. I realize that diminishing returns on mastery probably isn't something they'd want to do for tanks, but at least in my opinion, makes much more more sense than the backward way they are probably doing now.

Also, this is really something that should be internal testing only, not released to a PTR. If they can't figure this kind of math out with internal testing, then there may be some flawed methods in place.
100 Night Elf Warrior
18190


Or 4) They actually aren't out to get you, and this PTR push was actually in the middle of a set of changes to try for Paladins.


Except that the change runs 100% diametrically opposed to the explanation. It's akin to the Historic Preservation Society looking at an old building and saying "We set it on fire becaue we wanted to preserve the building for future generations." If the goal is to make it harder to cap mastery, then making it easier to cap mastery does nothing to accomplish that goal. In fact, it hinders that goal.


Again, PTR push in the middle of a set of changes.

Did you know there is a raid and some other stuff in 4.2? They aren't going to necessarily hold up pushing things to the PTR just because they haven't done everything they've wanted to with prot paladins yet.

This is not the first time that changes have been released in parts on a PTR. I mean, its pretty standard really. The blue post here goes just short of having a pop up screen saying that the holy shield nerf isn't the only change planned for prot paladins.
100 Human Warrior
17470
05/16/2011 04:25 PMPosted by Feanorion
Still not sure how that equals out to "screwing over every other tank." If we all get nerfed we are still all in the same place just lower.


Current raid content is tuned around current tank mechanics. If we all get nerfed to hell and back, how are we supposed to clear old content? Do you honestly think they will go back and re-tune every Cata raid encounter? Or that if they do try, they will do it accurately and successfully?


We're also balanced around current gear as well. New tanks will have access to tier 12 gear from Valor Points just by running Heroics, and they'll have access to new epics from the vendors from the new dailies. Add in BoE epics from Firelands and they'll be significantly more powerful than we are in this tier.
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