dungeon journal: down the spiral we go

56 Gnome Death Knight
490
How does it affect the "inventiveness" of a raid group? All the journal seems to do is gather information for WoW players without them having to look it up on tankspot, mmo-champion, wowhead, etc. It amounts to enhanced tooltips for what are generally already datamined spells and abilities.

For "Top guilds" it will result in a few less wipes on each phase, for the middle it means they can start thinking about fights before the videos start to appear on the internet, and for the bottom it means players can read about what their terrible guildmates will be dying to for the next few months.

Raiders haven't been guarded and secretive about fight information for years now. Web 2.0 and self-promotion have lead to most of this information(hell a lot more than this type of information) being widely available to anyone that looks.
85 Night Elf Druid
10665
I do agree with the fact that the journal should be an account-wide thing that you discover when the ability is unleashed.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16275
The encounter journal is a great idea, it gives players basic information about what an ability does, it dose not give boss strategies though it is not like boss strategies are hard to figure out in wow anyway -- they are all do x to avoid y, or do z to take advantage of v....
85 Night Elf Druid
8910
i wish people read, I guess they just have things that disable them from reading threads

In fact, I'm sure some people just click threads and type things in the chat box for fun
13 Troll Druid
8135
I have terrible news for you, there is something called youtube that shows the figths in VIDEO!!! obiously this is the end of wow!!!
I don't like how some spells are given details about what to do regarding them. However, the suggestion to have this information locked until you see the spell cast once during an encounter is actually a good one I agree with. It would fit the theme of it being called a "journal."
85 Goblin Priest
8735
Even if this gave you the perfect strategy to beat the bosses, people would still find a way to @*!! up on the most rudimentary abilities and cause wipes over and over. This isn't going to change much. Maybe it will help those of us that aren't the highest of high-end raiders? Doubtful, but probably not...
71 Night Elf Priest
1030
Does anyone else think that this is a good idea for the sole fact that over the grand scale of all people raiding anywhere, it will save enough headaches/stupid wipes/extra afk's/raider demoralization/etc., that Blizzard will be able to release content faster (though I'm sure many would be quick to say they wouldn't release it anyways). If it saves a few wipes a night for the average raid, and there's 1000's of raids going on in the world every day, that cumulative time saved would warrant a more timely release of new raid content? Just a thought.
85 Night Elf Druid
10665
05/15/2011 10:51 PMPosted by Seikami
Does anyone else think that this is a good idea for the sole fact that over the grand scale of all people raiding anywhere, it will save enough headaches/stupid wipes/extra afk's/raider demoralization/etc., that Blizzard will be able to release content faster (though I'm sure many would be quick to say they wouldn't release it anyways). If it saves a few wipes a night for the average raid, and there's 1000's of raids going on in the world every day, that cumulative time saved would warrant a more timely release of new raid content? Just a thought.


No it won't

This change won't matter to most people who can't even move out of fires.
60 Troll Hunter
11600
Just saves me the time of putting my notes in tiny pad....
85 Blood Elf Paladin
7535
This is a personal opinion and doesn't reflect those of everyone in Adept, but I would say it is the same opinion for majority of us:

My opinions are very much the same as many other top guilds.

But for me it really boils down to two things.

1) What is the reason for a Raid Journal?
and
2) Why is content tested on PTR's rather than an internal Blizzard team?

The reason I say these two need to be addressed is because they tie in so closely to each other. Really speaking once a boss is on PTR it doesn't change a whole lot by the time it gets to live and it is really quite disappointing that the players who are part of the race are given the opportunity to do content before the race even starts.

The strategy and boss abilities from PTR testing get leaked to the public anyway therefore doing the same thing as what the Raid Journal does, the only change now is that Blizzard are giving the information to EVERYONE before they even enter vs the top ~30-100 guilds experimenting/learning about new mechanics and spreading the word/ideas on mechanics.

So for the casuals point of view what the Raid Journal provides is an easier means of learning about mechanics rather than going to watch a video or reading about the abilities on another website (wowhead.com for example). While the players who take raiding seriously are the ones affected in a sense that there is no element of surprise/excitement as you already know what you are going into and all it will do is change the way raids are dealt with (Guilds will be creating strategy for encounters before even stepping into the instance).

For example right now all the information on Ragnaros's abilities/phases are out there in the open and people can generate a full strategy guide before even attempting the boss, people will know that "hey, we should use fire resist gear for this fight because of the shear amount of fire damage" and things like this which will allow guilds now to craft/find as much fire resist gear as possible (Just using this as an example of how people will know in advanced how to prepare for a boss fight before it's even released on live).

My argument is not just for the Raid Journal it's about the PTR and why PTR testing is just as bad as giving people Raid Journals. Apart from select bosses which don't get tested, the PTR basically provides exactly what the Raid Journal is, and although it's basically the same as giving people a Raid Journal, it messes things up one step further. Firstly the content allows bosses to be attempted and tested BEFORE the race even begins. Why this is a big problem is that practice on an encounter will always be better for a player than reading up on the fights, and therefore the when the bosses go live they are killed quicker than they would be if there was no PTR for people to learn/practice encounters before the actual race.

Now I know it's unlikely for the PTR's to be closed tested by Blizzard employees, which means guilds will still be given the chance to do fights before they are "live". So really the players who are affected most are those hardcore guilds which test Blizzards content on the PTR's, and they are the ones who are saying they do not want the Raid Journal as it ruins the fun of learning these bosses, thus the Raid Journal will be just as useful to a raider as wowhead.com/bosskillers style websites are, but just providing them the quicker way of figuring out a boss.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
7535

What I'd propose is that this Raid Journal Information works in a different way if it is going to stay. Something along the lines of the information gets released slowly (perhaps monitored by Blizzard and when x amount of guilds kill the boss the information becomes viewable on Raid Journal as of the next raiding week (At server maintenance/restart the servers are updated to reflect new Raid Journal view-ability).

Another option could be that the Raid Journal works differently in that once the ability has happened to the raid, the Raid Journal makes the information on that spell viewable (by basically providing tooltip information). This way the information isn't publicly available before going into the encounter and all it does is creates ease for the players to not have to go through logs finding spell id's and reading tooltips through other means). And this provides an ease of use for that guild since the information they have discovered is all noted down automatically and as they progress phase by phase as abilities happen they can work out how to kill the boss. (Example if this was on Sinestra and players got up to Sinestra and the whole raid wipes to Extinction, the Raid Journal would have two abilities added in, one being Extinction which shows how much damage it deals. And if anyone was affected by the damage reduction of being inside the bubble ability in the Raid Journal which says that the ability reduces damage by x. Then it is up to the players to figure out who got the buff/debuff and what they were doing to get that buff/debuff to avoid the Extinction damage rather than straight up saying "Calen casts a Bubble shielding players from damage"). This is just an example of providing the information to the raiders while not giving too much away.

This would also make it easier on a guild to guild basis as during progression most guilds won't want to share too much information but it helps guilds individually without giving away everything to everyone.

One more option is that can even be decided that at a certain point in time all information becomes "unlocked" and have a "timer" on each phase for example till that information is 100% viewable by everyone in the game (probably 3-4 weeks from first kill the entire boss mechanics could be viewable by everyone).

tldr;
In my eyese Dungeon Journal will ruin the fun in progression if it is implemented how it currently stands

Also check out the EU thread:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2098162148?page=1
56 Gnome Death Knight
490
1) What is the reason for a Raid Journal?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2456449381

2) Why is content tested on PTR's rather than an internal Blizzard team?

The content IS tested by an internal Blizzard team. Hell, probably multiple teams. The PTR has proven to be much more reliable and thorough in finding bugs, tuning fights, etc. It is basically a condensed Alpha>Beta testing system.
100 Human Priest
19865
Why is content tested on PTR's rather than an internal Blizzard team?


Surely someone like you will remember the cluster#### that was the majority of raid bosses that got no beta or PTR testing. About the only ones they managed to get right with zero testing were a couple of endbosses, and probably because the rest of the instance was tested so they only had to balance one boss without it. I'd rather have everything spoiled ahead of time if it means never having to deal with another disaster like T5 or pre-fix C'thun or various other untested messes. I may not be high enough ranked to care about the dungeon journal for a world first kill but I've certainly been high enough ranked in the past to get to some of those bosses while they were still a mess and yeah, no thanks.

As for the raid journal, I like it and I'm fine with it, and yes I'm not competing for a world first, rather a realm first, but I'm happy to have that information available to have a strat ready for a few weeks later and I would hate if it were blocked til 100 guilds or whatever arbitrary number had killed it. The only restriction I would agree with is perhaps hiding it ONLY until the first kill in the world and absolutely no later than that. I care about executing the fight properly, not figuring out "aaah what did that stupid AOE just do?!?!?!"
Edited by Elliora on 5/16/2011 12:10 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8360
05/15/2011 11:30 PMPosted by Breesy
1) What is the reason for a Raid Journal?


Casuals/Pugs/people who don't achieve more than 7 normal bosses an entire content tier/the majority of blizzards endgame player base.


Thought I agree with you, this will kill the thrill of world class progression.
6 Night Elf Rogue
0
So many people biting this troll. No more than 100 people world wide have ever gone into a boss fight not knowing it's abilities and the strategy.
85 Orc Shaman
10440
Reading through this thread, it's mind boggling how ignorant some people are. Most raiders in the high end guilds actually get enjoyment out of going into a new fight blind and learning the abilities and mechanics as they go. While the Dungeon Journal makes it easier for those not in cutting edge guilds as they don't need to do external reading, it essentially destroys the fun the top end raiders get from learning fights blind.

The people that suggest not even reading it are equally as ignorant, how many guilds that were aiming for a world first on heroic Lich King turned off the buff each week? It's the same thing, not reading this would be putting themselves at a severe disadvantage in the race.

I've suggested this on the PTR forums and I'll do it here as well, the easiest way to please both parties would be to activate a particular boss in a journal once that boss has been killed on that realm. The top end guilds can go in blind and the Journal can be useful to those that it was obviously designed for. At the same time, anything to do with heroic mode should be left out of the Journal and it should simply be an ability list, not an exhaustive method of what to do and when.
100 Night Elf Hunter
18190
05/15/2011 11:33 PMPosted by Breesy
Another option could be that the Raid Journal works differently in that once the ability has happened to the raid, the Raid Journal makes the information on that spell viewable (by basically providing tooltip information).

As a non-top-guild-raider, but still a person who likes to learn a bit about the fight as we go, I like this idea. I would prefer the Journal function like this.
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