dungeon journal: down the spiral we go

90 Human Priest
16170
I've suggested this on the PTR forums and I'll do it here as well, the easiest way to please both parties would be to activate a particular boss in a journal once that boss has been killed on that realm.


No thanks. People will just make alts on another server to look at it anyway. I'm in a guild that is not after world firsts but has gotten many realm firsts and I would like to be able to use the journal. If they want to hide the information until just after the world first kill I wouldn't mind, but after that people who want the feature should certainly be allowed to use it. Personally, I HATE surprises and would rather plan everything out in advance and then just have to try it until we execute that strategy properly.
Edited by Elliora on 5/16/2011 1:04 AM PDT
85 Orc Death Knight
13785
You can lead a horse to water.....

The journal is a good idea but the people that it's meant for won't use it even once. There is already a multitude of information easily available to them about every aspect of the game and clearly a large portion of the player base still doesn't make use of it and those that do are apparently "elitists" now. So, it is just supplemental info for players that already know where to find info on their own.

They are unwilling to go to google and type "how to play a ret paladin" or "what does halfus do" so how are they expected to make sense of any of the information presented by the journal?

Blizz can either dumb down the game completely so even a toddler can succeed, figure out some magical new reward system that encourages playing well (shiny purples is no longer enough reward apparently) or break off raiding and put it in an ivory tower that completely shuts out poor play so one is forced to acquire information before being let in the gate.

They are running a business here so you can see which way we're headed... they're just taking the long road to get there.
Edited by Medvedev on 5/16/2011 1:58 AM PDT
85 Orc Hunter
3540
05/15/2011 07:17 PMPosted by Vilespirit
The world top guilds will remain world top guilds, but the progression race for this tier has been irrevocably ruined.


It has definitely been changed, not exactly ruined. The people who are in the top guilds will agree it did ruin it, but everyone has their own opinion. I personally prefer to learn an encounter without much knowledge of the fight ahead of time as well, but I can see how this information is being leaked by top guilds, which ruins their credibility for an argument like this.

Now the highest progression tier will be based on how well you can learn/adapt the actual fight with the knowledge given by blizzard, and not how long it takes you to figure out what all those abilities are. Usually it takes massive amounts of wipes before you even know everything the boss does.
55 Tauren Death Knight
100
05/15/2011 07:17 PMPosted by Vilespirit
Discovery and inventiveness in raiding are bad, with perfect execution being all that matters.


cool beans.
we're still going to keep raiding.
you can drown yourself in simple plan.
85 Orc Shaman
10440
05/16/2011 01:02 AMPosted by Elliora
People will just make alts on another server to look at it anyway.


By the time a guild gets a kill on a boss, the guilds that are upset about this are going to have all the info they need already anyway and will have no reason to log on another server.

05/16/2011 01:02 AMPosted by Elliora
I'm in a guild that is not after world firsts but has gotten many realm firsts and I would like to be able to use the journal.


Your case where you'd actually like it in a high end guild would be a very, very rare case. That being said, your world first idea wouldn't be too bad, if it's actually possible to fire a command that unlocks a boss in the journal once it's been killed worldwide though is probably stretching things.
90 Human Paladin
17615
Edit: People need to actually LOOK at the journal, it tells you exactly what to do for the ability. Trial and error would tell you Ragnaros targets people when they cluster in four or more


So would the tooltip for the ability. http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=100861
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13060
I don't raid anymore, and even if I did wouldn't be in one of the top end guilds, but I don't understand what the problem is here.

If the fights are all available on the PTR, then all the information on abilities and such would be made available anyways. How does having the journal make things any different? If you're chasing a world or realm first, wouldn't you have played on the PTR ahead of time to get practice? Barring that, you would have done any and all research available from datamining and the PTR.

It seems to me that all the information is already available for those who really want it, all this does is make it easier to find.

I could be wrong, I dunno.
85 Troll Priest
7820
Um... Aren't all the fights on video and explained on youtube already? Are you saying that the lazy will now beat raid bosses because of this information that can now be found ingame?

And I am way to lazy to check, but since you are an 80, I am guessing that your glory days of raiding are behind you?


Vilespirit is in Adept and posts on an alt for reasons unknown. You could probably figure out who it was if you wanted to put forth the effort.

That said, he's talking about top guilds. Part of learning a fight is learning what each ability does not having Blizzard create a tankspot guide for you.


http://imageshack.us/m/600/6130/rhyolith.png
http://imageshack.us/m/269/3922/ragm.png


The implementation of the dungeon journal is INCREDIBLY lazy. It's not a journal it is a guide. A journal is something you write in to tell about the days/encounter's events, you don't read your journal to tell you how to handle the day. If the journal was reactive to the game, ie; once an ability is unlocked you can see the ability's effects it in the journal, after 15 people die to an ability the ability will be expanded upon as shown in the sshots. Telling you what to do before you even see the encounter is just asinine.

Edit: People need to actually LOOK at the journal, it tells you exactly what to do for the ability. Trial and error would tell you Ragnaros targets people when they cluster in four or more, now the fresh lvl 85 who doesn't even have a single purple knows not to do that.


I suppose I see where you're coming from I guess the top end guilds would derive much entertainment from figuring out to deal with abilities. I could swear though (even though I looked at your screenshots and kinda facepalmed...even though I have never been in a top progressed guild) that blizzard had said they wouldn't add in how to deal with abilities. That is kinda lame.
85 Human Mage
6705
I do worry what this means for my raid group.

We don't execute well, and frequently have to come up with our own quirky strategies for dealing with bosses. We have our success with that. We probably won't ever see and serious Heroic modes down, but we do what we can on the encounters we actually enjoy.

If everything has to be done a certain precise way, it probably doesn't bode well for us. I guess we just have to wait and see.
85 Night Elf Druid
10305
I've been playing since vanilla, and I can't help but look at the dungeon journal as a tool that's long overdue.

The dungeon journal is almost exactly the same as previews of boss abilities that are data mined and displayed on mmo champion, with the only difference being that the abilities are layered out into phases so you have more of an idea of when to expect the abilities. Easier? Maybe. But this changes nothing in terms of raiding, other than making it so the knowledge of what to look out for is more readily available rather than running into a fight blind and wiping so you can find out what the boss does, and THEN coming up with the strategy. You might know that the big bad boss is going to use an ability that hits your whole raid for half their health, but do you know how often, do you know if it's avoidable, do you know if that damage is able to be mitigated, or maybe a debuff avoided / dispelled via class mechanics such as AMS or bubble?

Blizzard is simply adding in something to help people out. It's not game breaking, and it certainly doesn't seem to be some "slippery slope" situation that a lot of people are making it out to be. If anything it will improve the overall quality of the game since more people will be informed of fight mechanics which means that pugs will possibly be more successful.

Also, one last thing. If you're using any sort of mods that assist you in raiding, then you really have no place complaining that blizzard is making the game easier. Otherwise, you can argue to your hearts content.
90 Orc Death Knight
16325
I do worry what this means for my raid group.

We don't execute well, and frequently have to come up with our own quirky strategies for dealing with bosses. We have our success with that. We probably won't ever see and serious Heroic modes down, but we do what we can on the encounters we actually enjoy.

If everything has to be done a certain precise way, it probably doesn't bode well for us. I guess we just have to wait and see.


Nothing has to be DONE a precise way and that will never change.

Some guilds had people spread out for encapsulate on Felmyst, where other guilds would remain completely stationary with 1-2 pieces of arcane resistance on and tank the thing. Just because they give you the spell description doesn't mean you're suppose to react in a predictable fashion.

There's a reason why dozens of strategies emerge on any particular boss and why people will defend to the death 'their way' of doing things. The most efficient way of doing things on any boss encounter can be discussed, but it will never be totally efficient to your groups needs. Some guilds struggle with certain mechanics and they tailor make their strategy to compensate for this.

I honestly don't think this is as big of a deal as anybody is making it out to be. My guild isn't a top guild but I can't see how top guilds would get offended by this (or people delusional enough to CONSIDER themselves a top quality guild when they are in fact NOT). The number of top level guilds is a lot smaller than some of you whiners are thinking.

Even top 20 US guilds aren't top caliber guilds. Fact of the matter is if you aren't in a guild that kills a boss in roughly a week from when a boss is first down (or are capable of doing so on a consistence basis) then you really have no right to complain about this. Try as you might you will just scour these guilds logs and dig for information as best as you can through very unconventional means.

If you are however one of those guilds competing for world firsts and the margin of error is a day or two, then yes, complain all you might. But for the rest of us... well it's not going to effect us. Any meaningful information is readily available soon after the first kills go out.

And please, again, this goes out to all of you guilds with the ill perceived notion that this terribly effects your play. It doesn't.
Edited by Gròmmash on 5/16/2011 7:38 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Rogue
3805
05/16/2011 07:36 AMPosted by Gròmmash
Even top 20 US guilds aren't top caliber guilds. Fact of the matter is if you aren't in a guild that kills a boss in roughly a week from when a boss is first down (or are capable of doing so on a consistence basis) then you really have no right to complain about this. Try as you might you will just scour these guilds logs and dig for information as best as you can through very unconventional means.


The key to your rant that you missed is that they would have pulled it already. There's a difference between "what the heck just killed us" and "oh that must have been x".

It's funny that people actually but into the journal, if Blizzard is seriously going to get into execution fights then guess what... those execution fights are the ones most guilds are NOT doing. Al'akir and council are the two largest execution fights this tier, heroic conclave coming in soon after. If your guild can't kill Halfus how well do you think you will do when every fight is tailored like al'akir, the number of "TOO MUCH RNG IN THIS FIGHT" will overflow the boards.
90 Orc Death Knight
16325
I didn't say I fully agree with it, just that most guilds are going to be relatively unaffected by it. You really need to be at the very pinnacle of progression to be effected by this in anyway. I fully remember some of the very top guilds failing to kill Heroic Anub'arak simply because they didn't know about things like Holy Wrath interrupting the shadow strike, preventing it from even being cast. This was found out by pretty much every guild behind the first couple who did it looking through combat logs to figure it out. "WTF, why was holy wrath used at this instant? Ohh!!!!!"

Some of the journal really does reveal too much information, but those specifically mentioning numbers are absolutely fine IMO. Everything is data mined before it's released anyway, and you can pretty much tell your raiders those values vaguely.

"X ability does a ton of damage and if it goes off we will wipe"
"X ability does survivable damage but only if CDs are popped"
"X ability does damage, can be avoidable, and we probably want to avoid it happening to make it easier"

Whether these notes should pertain to heroic modes can certainly be argued. It is of my opinion that the notes should be left in even for heroic modes, perhaps a bit more vague?
Edited by Gròmmash on 5/16/2011 8:08 AM PDT
90 Human Mage
14015
the journal doesnt tell you how to deal with the ability besides the obvious cases of do not stand in fire/trap/patch/blah blah blah

it also doesnt tell you how frequently those abilities are being spam
doesnt tell you the order the are cast or how intertwine the abilities become when put together over long periods of time
85 Blood Elf Rogue
3805
it also doesnt tell you how frequently those abilities are being spam
doesnt tell you the order the are cast or how intertwine the abilities become when put together over long periods of time


Sparks of Rhyolith deal 8751 damage to all players within 12 yards. These should be pulled away from the raid as long as possible, then quickly destroyed.

Infernal Rage
Sparks of Rhyolith increase their damage dealt by 10% and damage taken by 10% every 5 seconds.
6 Worgen Priest
0
it also doesnt tell you how frequently those abilities are being spam
doesnt tell you the order the are cast or how intertwine the abilities become when put together over long periods of time


Sparks of Rhyolith deal 8751 damage to all players within 12 yards. These should be pulled away from the raid as long as possible, then quickly destroyed.

Infernal Rage
Sparks of Rhyolith increase their damage dealt by 10% and damage taken by 10% every 5 seconds.


And this is why the majority of people still can't grasp the idea of the Journal. They take one look at it and see the abilities and STILL not notice it tells you EXACTLY what to do.
1 Gnome Mage
0
05/16/2011 09:04 AMPosted by Zarmelia
And this is why the majority of people still can't grasp the idea of the Journal. They take one look at it and see the abilities and STILL not notice it tells you EXACTLY what to do.


Above and beyond that, it also ruins the experimentation that might make Blizzard say "Yeah that's a nice way to do it too".

Did Blizzard intend for the adds on Anshal's platform to be kited? What about Magmaw's parasites. If we had the neat DJ that said "Parasites should be quickly killed" then you are essentially forced into the strategy, since if that strategy isn't the norm Blizzard will have their hand forced to change the fight to make it so.
90 Orc Death Knight
16325


Above and beyond that, it also ruins the experimentation that might make Blizzard say "Yeah that's a nice way to do it too".

Did Blizzard intend for the adds on Anshal's platform to be kited? What about Magmaw's parasites. If we had the neat DJ that said "Parasites should be quickly killed" then you are essentially forced into the strategy, since if that strategy isn't the norm Blizzard will have their hand forced to change the fight to make it so.


While the wording on the Rhyolith entry might be a little bit too detailed I still don't see how it explicitly tells you how to do the encounter.

I don't see how this changes a whole lot from an experiment stand point at all. The encounters were never black/white before when we knew of data mined abilities, and it won't be now. I think people aren't giving Blizzard enough credit in thinking that with this journal, there will now only be one way to do things.

They only fix things that entirely break the spirit of the encounter. They likely do design encounters to be completed a certain way but as always leave room for them to be done in different ways. Some ways are obviously not intended and outside of things that are pretty much exploits they usually let them stand.

We ARE still as players going to find interesting and unique ways (or strategies they didn't account for) of defeating encounters. This is largely because there are far more of us playing the game, compared to designers designing this raid content. It has and always will be there right to decide whether or not we push the boundaries of completing an encounter in a fair way.

They could have guided people through ICC with the dungeon journal for such bosses like Lady Deathwhisper. Specifically telling you things like:

*HEROIC* Insignificance: This reduces the tanks total threat generated by 20% for 1 minute. It stacks! You better swap tanks or else your DPS is going to get themselves killed. Oh yeah, the boss is untauntable.

*HEROIC* Adds: On heroic difficulty 3 adds will continue to spawn on alternating sides, in addition to one coming from the stairs! You better deal with these quickly before you get overwhelmed.

I tried to use some of the lingo that Blizzard has been using in some of their dungeon journal entries. Most people would infer that you would want 2 tanks swapping aggro on Deathwhisper and one tank picking up the adds. People would obviously watch their threat and keep the adds down as to not be overwhelmed.

What is STILL going to set guilds apart are things like this. This fight was considered difficult (comparatively) when first released but it didn't stop guilds like Premo from having a Warrior kite EVERY single add around with piercing howl, thus eliminating an entire aspect of P2. Same goes with the insignificance. Of course threat was removed when you got mind controlled, but it obviously wasn't intended that you could simply sit there with MD/ToTT and have a single tank literally tank the entire phase.

What makes you think Blizzard is going to abandon this approach. Regardless of what abilities are known and how 'on paper' blizzard designs the encounter to be played out there are going to be a lot of ways to beat these boss encounters.
85 Goblin Warlock
5605
Is this crabby's journal? I bet crabby has lots of helpful advice on how to raid better.
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