dungeon journal: down the spiral we go

85 Orc Hunter
3525
Lokin they cant not look at the guide because if they arent then thier competators are so they would suffer on progressions and lose out on getting world firsts while the other guilds are looking at the journal and getting the world firsts
85 Orc Hunter
3525
Øtaku

Why should the game become easier becuase people cant figure it out im not the best player in the world and dont claim to be but i dont want the game made easier for me because i cant get my stuff together i want to become better not have to game brought down to my level. what your asking them to do would be like asking professional sports players to stop being so good because the average person isnt as good as them
90 Draenei Shaman
6470
05/15/2011 07:17 PMPosted by Vilespirit
As someone who's been raiding at a higher level than most of you can ever hope to achieve, I have to say that I'm a bit saddened (though not shocked) by this slide.


lawls

This might be the best thing I've ever read on the WoW forums, ever.
I think for five man content the dungeon guide is a great idea. With raid content I really don't think it's neccessary.

I like the idea of the raid entries being gated until either a certain amount of time has passed or x weeks after a world first kill. Yes this wouldn't really impact that many people outside the top three or four guilds in the world but no one else needs the information before then. They get to have their fun (learning encounters blind) and people who progress at a slower pace still get the information and help they need. Everyone wins.

The only reason I can think of to not gate the information on raid encounters is to get some perverse joy of spoiling the game for people higher up the food chain.


This.

I don't see how knowing what Ragnaros' abilities are when Firelands comes out will help guilds that take months to get there anyways. Let the top players have their fun, the information will be out by the time the rest of us start catching up.

Also, I wish I had a journal IRL that told me what to expect every day before it actually happens. Then I'd know when to call in sick at work to skip "those days". Like today. /headdesk
Community Manager
We have not in fact made the statement that "Discovery and inventiveness in raiding is bad” with the introduction of the Dungeon Journal. We have simply said, "Here are the tools to be successful. Go forth and conquer." We have in no way said "how" to do it nor is that our intention for this feature. The ability to play your character within a team of other people is all up to you and your skills. We're just trying to make it more possible to be successful within the game with information that lends itself to aiding success.

We want the discovery and challenge to come into play as a result of actually facing the mechanics versus simply being beaten by the mechanics of the game to begin with to even start working on a strategy to defeat the encounter (which is what many top raiding guilds end up doing.) It's very difficult for anyone to claim that discovery is a large portion of the game when we live in a world of datamining, PTR videos, boss kill addons, and extensive documentation of everything by a very savvy and experienced gaming community.

We want to provide a common language to communicate with as well. What exists now is something that has evolved over time in an organic way, but not everyone is speaking the same "language". This way, you can call the "big blue thing" by its name rather than resorting to trying to describe it or make up a new name for it.

We know that players already go out to outside sources to look for information. On some occasions, this information may even have misinterpretations of the boss abilities and cause some frustration for those who are attempting to kill the mob based on that information. We're simply making what you're facing a bit clearer where it needs to be made clear. This isn’t the fault of those documenting these things. From our end, not all abilities that bosses use are as clear as we could have made them or should make them be.

It's expected that the top-end guilds that like to go for the first kill/s will still be able to accomplish this with or without the Dungeon Journal existing. We have no fear that they will suddenly be overrun and lose their place simply because everyone is starting with the same information.

That said, we have been listening to feedback as well and have trimmed back a little of the information. We also may consider (for the future) not documenting specific abilities for very difficult bosses like Sinestra, or heroic modes on final bosses like Ragnaros, or even what exactly causes Onyxia to deep breathe. Getting solid constructive feedback that we can consider to set into motion for change is always welcome and useful to us.

If all else, if you still want to take on encounters without the use of the Dungeon Journal, you can. Just don't open it. What you don’t know, will probably kill/wipe you. ;)



Since it's too late to take this information back, Blizzard has made a very clear statement:
Discovery and inventiveness in raiding are bad, with perfect execution being all that matters.



90 Night Elf Death Knight
10530
Dungeon Journal - Movement will cause damage to the entire party.
Raid Leader - If you move during Flame Wreath I will personally pay a horde guild 10k each to camp you.
Dungeon Journal - When the stacks reach X they will transform into Dragonkin.
Raid Leader - Stand in the beam until it hits X then MOVE OUT OF IT UNTIL IT FALLS OFF then move back.

Clearly, Blizzard is telling us how to play the game.
85 Human Paladin
3610
That said, we have been listening to feedback as well and have trimmed back a little of the information. We also may consider (for the future) not documenting specific abilities for very difficult bosses like Sinestra, or heroic modes on final bosses like Ragnaros, or even what exactly causes Onyxia to deep breathe. Getting solid constructive feedback that we can consider to set into motion for change is always welcome and useful to us.


I'd prefer the whole thing be removed, but this is a good start.
the whole feature seems unnecessary.

we've gone almost 7 years without it and it's been fine so why do we need it now?
90 Night Elf Druid
9815
We have not in fact made the statement that "Discovery and inventiveness in raiding is bad” with the introduction of the Dungeon Journal. We have simply said, "Here are the tools to be successful. Go forth and conquer." We have in no way said "how" to do it nor is that our intention for this feature. The ability to play your character within a team of other people is all up to you and your skills. We're just trying to make it more possible to be successful within the game with information that lends itself to aiding success.

We want the discovery and challenge to come into play as a result of actually facing the mechanics versus simply being beaten by the mechanics of the game to begin with to even start working on a strategy to defeat the encounter (which is what many top raiding guilds end up doing.) It's very difficult for anyone to claim that discovery is a large portion of the game when we live in a world of datamining, PTR videos, boss kill addons, and extensive documentation of everything by a very savvy and experienced gaming community.

We want to provide a common language to communicate with as well. What exists now is something that has evolved over time in an organic way, but not everyone is speaking the same "language". This way, you can call the "big blue thing" by its name rather than resorting to trying to describe it or make up a new name for it.

We know that players already go out to outside sources to look for information. On some occasions, this information may even have misinterpretations of the boss abilities and cause some frustration for those who are attempting to kill the mob based on that information. We're simply making what you're facing a bit clearer where it needs to be made clear. This isn’t the fault of those documenting these things. From our end, not all abilities that bosses use are as clear as we could have made them or should make them be.

It's expected that the top-end guilds that like to go for the first kill/s will still be able to accomplish this with or without the Dungeon Journal existing. We have no fear that they will suddenly be overrun and lose their place simply because everyone is starting with the same information.

That said, we have been listening to feedback as well and have trimmed back a little of the information. We also may consider (for the future) not documenting specific abilities for very difficult bosses like Sinestra, or heroic modes on final bosses like Ragnaros, or even what exactly causes Onyxia to deep breathe. Getting solid constructive feedback that we can consider to set into motion for change is always welcome and useful to us.

If all else, if you still want to take on encounters without the use of the Dungeon Journal, you can. Just don't open it. What you don’t know, will probably kill/wipe you. ;)



Since it's too late to take this information back, Blizzard has made a very clear statement:
Discovery and inventiveness in raiding are bad, with perfect execution being all that matters.


When you tell us exactly what the mechanics are, you've pretty much told us how to beat it, because it's a no-brainer from there.

Telling us that claims of discovery aren't real anymore simply because there's dataminers and guides out there is also rediculous. Not everyone goes and looks up these guides. There are plenty of guilds that enjoy learning the strat for themselves even though there are guides out there.

The top-end guilds WANT to beat their heads against walls, be beaten by mechanics, then learn and adapt to them. You are taking this away from them. Many guilds without nearly as much progression want that too. As for those who don't care about "claiming discovery," the guides are out for them by the time they reach that point in progression and want them, if they do want them. *Everyone* already has as much info as they want or *don't* want *already*. The progression by the entire WoW community as it stands is as it should be, as a result of those last few sentences I typed, simply because everyone has what they wants, whether the DJ supporters will acknowledge that or not. This is a really rediculous idea as a result. Take it out.
80 Blood Elf Hunter
0
05/19/2011 03:00 PMPosted by Dasadin
That said, we have been listening to feedback as well and have trimmed back a little of the information. We also may consider (for the future) not documenting specific abilities for very difficult bosses like Sinestra, or heroic modes on final bosses like Ragnaros, or even what exactly causes Onyxia to deep breathe. Getting solid constructive feedback that we can consider to set into motion for change is always welcome and useful to us.


I'd prefer the whole thing be removed, but this is a good start.


And lets hope this is just step 1 to removing it for raids.

Have it for 5 mans.


Also, change the freaking name, it's not a journal if it tells you the future.
85 Human Warlock
3925
The journal tells you what abilities do what. It doesnt move your character for you, it doesnt show you what the abilities look like. Theres already video's on the fights so instead of a top guild giving you the info that you would go to the web to get, blizzard has it right in game. It doesnt make things any easier.
85 Human Paladin
3610
05/19/2011 03:13 PMPosted by Valiariant
The journal tells you what abilities do what. It doesnt move your character for you, it doesnt show you what the abilities look like. Theres already video's on the fights so instead of a top guild giving you the info that you would go to the web to get, blizzard has it right in game. It doesnt make things any easier.


It absolutely does, especially for the more complex end bosses.
90 Troll Mage
0
Anyone who does not want to use it can refuse not to. This is not a tutorial we are fored to read before any fight.

If a top-guild really likes to solve the fight themselves, they may continue to do so.

If a top-guild does not enjoy solving the fight themselves and simply want to be first in killing someone, then this is just a change the to rules of the race, which a true competitor will embrace and adapt to.

If you are not in a top-guild and you like to solve the fight yourself, you may continue to do so.

If you are in a guild which obtains information from people who have already done the fight, then you don't care about solving yourself; you just want to kill the enemy. So why do you care?
90 Goblin Priest
10990
Lists of boss abilities have been accessable for a long time on boss mods and datamining websites like mmo-champion.com. Full raid strategies are always available via youtube or tankspot. Although all this info has been damn near REQUIRED by raid leaders who aren't on the cutting edge of progression for their guilds to succeed, Blizzard gives us something very similar in-game and everyone cries foul.

If you weren't getting all the information the dungeon journal has from one of the other sources before now, you're a liability in your raids.
Community Manager


The top-end guilds WANT to beat their heads against walls, be beaten by mechanics, then learn and adapt to them. You are taking this away from them. Many guilds without nearly as much progression want that too. As for those who don't care about "claiming discovery," the guides are out for them by the time they reach that point in progression and want them, if they do want them. *Everyone* already has as much info as they want or *don't* want *already*. The progression by the entire WoW community as it stands is as it should be, as a result of those last few sentences I typed, simply because everyone has what they wants, whether the DJ supporters will acknowledge that or not. This is a really rediculous idea as a result. Take it out.


No one is taking anything away from you. You personally do not need to (nor does your guild) actually look at the information in the Dungeon Journal at any point in time. If you want to go into it blind, you can.

As for your last two sentences, I highly advise that if you wish to hold a constructive discussion, that you refrain from statements such as those. They are not constructive or productive to this discussion. All the reasons for which we want to add this feature are in my post. If you don't agree, that's OK. But making demands of "Take it out" are not constructive or productive.
90 Human Paladin
13395
One problem i find with forums is that the people who are happy with something have no need to go to them and post how happy they are. for this reason forums always have a crap storm of people who don't like something, and sometimes can get things changed for the better, sometimes for the worse.

What i have seen blizzard doing in this expac is making a solid effort to reduce people's need for addons, datamining, and outside guides. in some ways and some fights i can turn off all of my addons (except bartender, still gotta have that) and be just fine.

I say keep up the good work Blizz, not in every thing that you do or don't do, but for trying to keep the game independant and for listening to the community alot more than some developers can say they have.
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