dungeon journal: down the spiral we go

100 Human Priest
22685

That said, we have been listening to feedback as well and have trimmed back a little of the information. We also may consider (for the future) not documenting specific abilities for very difficult bosses like Sinestra, or heroic modes on final bosses like Ragnaros, or even what exactly causes Onyxia to deep breathe. Getting solid constructive feedback that we can consider to set into motion for change is always welcome and useful to us.



As someone who is 13/13 heroic... PLEASE do not do this. I liked the dungeon journal a lot as it was on PTR. If someone feels they had to ruin their fun by using the dungeon journal to keep their world/US first that is their OWN fault, and if they don't like it, TOO BAD. Those guilds are not even the majority of hard mode guilds. The dungeon journal is GREAT as it is on PTR now. Choosing to raid heroic modes should not mean having to use unreliable out of game information when you have added this awesome feature. Please do not exclude any heroic bosses from it. :( Plenty of people use strategy guides for various games because everyone plays games for a different reason. For some people thinking up strategies is fun, some people don't like to think up strategy but like to work together to execute a strategy that's already there, others just like the lore/environments of raids, etc. Everyone raids for different reasons, so please do not assume that every guild clearing hard modes chose hard modes because they like to figure out complicated strategies on their own. I don't dislike normal modes for lack of complexity but because the damage/healing requirements are really low (zzzz) and like 5 people can die and you still kill it easily.
Edited by Elliora on 5/19/2011 4:22 PM PDT
100 Human Priest
22685
No one is taking anything away from you. You personally do not need to (nor does your guild) actually look at the information in the Dungeon Journal at any point in time. If you want to go into it blind, you can.

As for your last two sentences, I highly advise that if you wish to hold a constructive discussion, that you refrain from statements such as those. They are not constructive or productive to this discussion. All the reasons for which we want to add this feature are in my post. If you don't agree, that's OK. But making demands of "Take it out" are not constructive or productive.


Simply not true. We shouldn't have to choose between the excitement of figuring things our for ourselves and staying competitive with other guilds who WILL use the journal.


why not? why is this choice so much more unfair compared to every other choice someone must make to be in a high ranked guild? should they go back to limited attempts so people don't have to choose to raid 8 hours a day til everything is dead, because someone else will if they don't? people should take responsibility for their own choices ffs.
85 Worgen Mage
14050
It is expected that naive and otherwise ignorant posters take the stance of "you don't have to use it" in reply to someone in a highly ranked raiding guild about this topic, but nevertheless disappointing that a blue has basically parroted the same line of thinking in this very thread.

This same thing was said regarding the ICC % buff, and it wasn't relevant then and it has not become more relevant now. To even suggest such a thing with a straight face is to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the hyper-competitive mentality behind most if not all of these guilds, which is a big part of what defines and separates them every other guild in the first place. Guilds that are highly ranked are there for a reason, and it's not because they deliberately eschewed a legitimate way to give themselves a competitive advantage.

Telling a guild competing for world/regional/server ranking not to use all the tools at their disposal to win is akin to telling Michael Phelps to swim in the kiddie pool (but he can compete with his arms and legs bound together if the competition is otherwise too weak), Michael Jordan to compete in the D-leagues in a wheelchair (ditto), and Tiger Woods to play amateur with wooden planks (I think you get the idea).

Someone made the point either in this thread or the one on the EU forums about how experiencing end boss mechanic without an in-game cliff notes and playing competitively weren't mutually exclusive prior to the current iteration of the DJ. If left unchanged, they will be from now on, although I'm happy to see Blizzard acknowledge 1) that the first version of this in game guide perhaps revealed too much, and 2) future end bosses and hardmodes may be partially or completely left out of this guide.


Also,
05/19/2011 03:35 PMPosted by Marza
Who do you think writes the DBM modules and videos everyone watches?
100 Night Elf Druid
10610
1% being only the most top-end guilds? Yeah okay, what about those who have some fun watching the races as well? You're completely discounting this, and the fact that competition in the high-ends will lose much of its credibility, since much of the race is to figure out the mechanics, come up with a way to counter them, and then execute. This will simply skip it to the boring grind to see who can open up the DJ fastest, and then execute after the obvious strats to counter the mechanics are organized. It becomes a race of grind and execution only, and that's much less fun to participate in or spectate. It affects much more than just the top end guilds. It only takes from their fun to add anti-tabout convenience to those who already have strats available to them by the time they reach this point in progression, whether it be from online strats or this tool. It's pointless and a waste of time, when they could be working on countless other issues or ideas.
85 Human Death Knight
5880
if ya want it:use it
if ya dont want to use it: dont use it
hope i helped :)
85 Orc Warrior
3375
It is expected that naive and otherwise ignorant posters take the stance of "you don't have to use it" in reply to someone in a highly ranked raiding guild about this topic, but nevertheless disappointing that a blue has basically parroted the same line of thinking in this very thread.

This same thing was said regarding the ICC % buff, and it wasn't relevant then and it has not become more relevant now. To even suggest such a thing with a straight face is to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the hyper-competitive mentality behind most if not all of these guilds, which is a big part of what defines and separates them every other guild in the first place. Guilds that are highly ranked are there for a reason, and it's not because they deliberately eschewed a legitimate way to give themselves a competitive advantage.

Telling a guild competing for world/regional/server ranking not to use all the tools at their disposal to win is akin to telling Michael Phelps to swim in the kiddie pool (but he can compete with his arms and legs bound together if the competition is otherwise too weak), Michael Jordan to compete in the D-leagues in a wheelchair (ditto), and Tiger Woods to play amateur with wooden planks (I think you get the idea).

Someone made the point either in this thread or the one on the EU forums about how experiencing end boss mechanic without an in-game cliff notes and playing competitively weren't mutually exclusive prior to the current iteration of the DJ. If left unchanged, they will be from now on, although I'm happy to see Blizzard acknowledge 1) that the first version of this in game guide perhaps revealed too much, and 2) future end bosses and hardmodes may be partially or completely left out of this guide.


Also,
Who do you think writes the DBM modules and videos everyone watches?


You best be trollin'.

If doing raids in a guild means SO MUCH TO YOU, I can't imagine how your real life is.

And don't give me that face that you don't know what real life is.
85 Human Paladin
3610
It is expected that naive and otherwise ignorant posters take the stance of "you don't have to use it" in reply to someone in a highly ranked raiding guild about this topic, but nevertheless disappointing that a blue has basically parroted the same line of thinking in this very thread.

This same thing was said regarding the ICC % buff, and it wasn't relevant then and it has not become more relevant now. To even suggest such a thing with a straight face is to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the hyper-competitive mentality behind most if not all of these guilds, which is a big part of what defines and separates them every other guild in the first place. Guilds that are highly ranked are there for a reason, and it's not because they deliberately eschewed a legitimate way to give themselves a competitive advantage.

Telling a guild competing for world/regional/server ranking not to use all the tools at their disposal to win is akin to telling Michael Phelps to swim in the kiddie pool (but he can compete with his arms and legs bound together if the competition is otherwise too weak), Michael Jordan to compete in the D-leagues in a wheelchair (ditto), and Tiger Woods to play amateur with wooden planks (I think you get the idea).

Someone made the point either in this thread or the one on the EU forums about how experiencing end boss mechanic without an in-game cliff notes and playing competitively weren't mutually exclusive prior to the current iteration of the DJ. If left unchanged, they will be from now on, although I'm happy to see Blizzard acknowledge 1) that the first version of this in game guide perhaps revealed too much, and 2) future end bosses and hardmodes may be partially or completely left out of this guide.


Also,
Who do you think writes the DBM modules and videos everyone watches?


Quoting this for truth/awesomeness
Community Manager

It's a no-brainer. "X ability: Creates a patch of fire at X % of health/time" Okay, at that point, don't stand in the fire. The strats are indirectly being explained already. This arguement is flawed as a result.

Yes, many of us do make the choice to tab out and watch a vid or read a strat, or both. But the top-end guilds do NOT, so that arguement is also flawed. They don't have it and they don't want it. You're simply adding an anti-tab-out convencience to players at the cost of the top-end guilds and those who spectate the races. It isn't good and it isn't wanted, except by those who don't understand this.


The, "I know Kung Fu" quote was meant to simply illustrate that knowing something and being able to do something are two very different things. For Neo (the character) knowing was the same as being able to do. In this case, the knowledge the journal provides does not automatically translate to being able to do.

That said, what you're saying though translates to wanting to deny others (guilds that aren't top end raiding guilds) a chance to succeed from the start of the introduction of a new dungeon or raid. Denying someone else something because you want to do it the "hard way" isn't a reason to scrap the Dungeon Journal.

Again, constructive feedback is great. Helping us refine how much is too much for everyone is a great. Asking us to deny others a useful tool, is not so great.

*I would like to take a moment to remind everyone to refrain from personal attacks. We are sharing words here, not insults.
Edited by Nethaera on 5/19/2011 4:03 PM PDT
85 Goblin Warlock
6895


No one is taking anything away from you. You personally do not need to (nor does your guild) actually look at the information in the Dungeon Journal at any point in time. If you want to go into it blind, you can.

As for your last two sentences, I highly advise that if you wish to hold a constructive discussion, that you refrain from statements such as those. They are not constructive or productive to this discussion. All the reasons for which we want to add this feature are in my post. If you don't agree, that's OK. But making demands of "Take it out" are not constructive or productive.


Simply not true. We shouldn't have to choose between the excitement of figuring things our for ourselves and staying competitive with other guilds who WILL use the journal.


Yes, because the journal is soooo much more informative than the PTR video strat that actually shows the fight and has some dude telling you all the mechanics. Get over it.

Maybe you can get them to disable it on the PTR. Thats where the real action and learning happens anyway, there is never anything left to learn by the time a fight hits live.

Might as well say "I can't stand that my cable company has a description of every show on the guide... I would much rather have to watch the whole thing! PLZ Comcast, Take away the guide! Other people are using it to find something to watch faster than me and it's not fair!"
Edited by Sheztrik on 5/19/2011 4:02 PM PDT
85 Undead Death Knight
10350
I'm confused isn't downing a boss a good thing?
Edited by Runeclad on 5/19/2011 4:03 PM PDT
100 Night Elf Druid
10610
Nah it's not, Zoo. We don't know any more what Drew Brees or Bill Belichck are about to do on a given down than Premonition or Paragon do about what a boss is about to do before they do it, and people like it that way. Also, it's worked just fine this way for pushing 3/4 of a decade. It's only going to take away from all these people, adding nothing to those who want it except anti-tab-out convenenience.
Edited by Galadrenai on 5/19/2011 4:04 PM PDT
38 Human Warrior
0
05/19/2011 04:00 PMPosted by Nethaera
Denying someone else something because you want to do it the "hard way" isn't a reason to scrap the Dungeon Journal.


No not scrap, they have said many times only to cut back on the specifics...yes a few would like it scrapped in an ideal world, but that's not what they are lobbying for.
85 Worgen Druid
4380
The real question is why are they doing this ?

Do they think people need a guiding hand to get through the content quicker ? (7 bosses in Firelands and all)

Are they trying to open up raiding to more people like it was in Wotlk. ?

If somethings not broken why fix it ? What was broken blizz that they thought they needed to add this in ?
Edited by Ajaxis on 5/19/2011 4:05 PM PDT
85 Human Paladin
3610
That said, what you're saying though translates to wanting to deny others (guilds that aren't top end raiding guilds) a chance to succeed from the start of the introduction of a new dungeon or raid. Denying someone else something because you want to do it the "hard way" isn't a reason to scrap the Dungeon Journal.


Again, this is simply not true at all. ALL guilds have the same chance to succeed from the start. Why must they rely on top guilds to provide strategies? What prevents them from figuring things out on their own?
100 Night Elf Druid
10610

It's a no-brainer. "X ability: Creates a patch of fire at X % of health/time" Okay, at that point, don't stand in the fire. The strats are indirectly being explained already. This arguement is flawed as a result.

Yes, many of us do make the choice to tab out and watch a vid or read a strat, or both. But the top-end guilds do NOT, so that arguement is also flawed. They don't have it and they don't want it. You're simply adding an anti-tab-out convencience to players at the cost of the top-end guilds and those who spectate the races. It isn't good and it isn't wanted, except by those who don't understand this.


The, "I know Kung Fu" quote was meant to simply illustrate that knowing something and being able to do something are two very different things. For Neo (the character) knowing was the same as being able to do. In this case, the knowledge the journal provides does not automatically translate to being able to do.

That said, what you're saying though translates to wanting to deny others (guilds that aren't top end raiding guilds) a chance to succeed from the start of the introduction of a new dungeon or raid. Denying someone else something because you want to do it the "hard way" isn't a reason to scrap the Dungeon Journal.

Again, constructive feedback is great. Helping us refine how much is too much for everyone is a great. Asking us to deny others a useful tool, is not so great.

*I would like to take a moment to remind everyone to refrain from personal attacks. We are sharing words here, not insults.


I don't see how not having this tool denies anyone anything. The most casual guild out there is just as welcome to go and see what a boss does, and then counter it. The thing is, by the time those guilds do get to a point where they're ready to set first foot into a raid, there are already out-of-game guides doing this for them. You're taking away a lot from some people to give almost nothing to a group of players who are also largely made up by casuals that don't care about raiding nearly as much as focused progression guilds do, anyway.
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