4.2 Conquest change

90 Draenei Priest
9485
And there is no longer a requirement to “grind” unrated BGs for Honor each season, so the real time investment isn't changing as much as some players are perceiving it to be.

On top of that, the frank reality is that the total time investment required in season 9 to get all your points has been much, much too low, as you could do that from a few 2v2 Arena games each week completed in less than an hour’s time.


If time invested is the issue, why don't you simply add an honor cost to all the items on top of conquest points, kind of like it used to be once upon a time? You can then double conquest point gain from RBGs or allow RBGs to give honor even when not at the conquest cap (or both) to keep the time investment for arenas and RBGs similar.

Now everyone will also have to grind honor for their items, but they can still get all their conquest points from either arenas or RBGs as they do now.

There are many ways to "fix" the time invested issue, just for the sake of all that is holy, leave the conquest caps alone. Forcing people into RBGs who do not want to be there is a horrible idea.
90 Dwarf Priest
3670
When I tried Rated BGs a few months ago, this is what frustrated me:

Just a few minutes after AB started, it became obvious the other team was far more coordinated than us (even though we were using Vent) and it became a foregone conclusion that we were going to lose.

So I found myself just sort of jumping around waiting for the battle to end so we can requeue and get an easier team next time. During this long wait, there was nothing for me to go for. I wasn't conquest capped, so I couldn't get honor from killing people. It just felt lame that I didn't have anything to go for and that I was pretty much stuck waiting so many minutes for the darn battle to end.

What if the team that loses could still get a token amount of conquest points for continuing to try? For example, in Warsong Gulch, if you're down 0-2, maybe you could still get a small conquest points reward for capping the flag once. In Arathi Basin, the amount of conquest points the loser gets would depend on how long the battle lasted. Even if you're certain to lose, you could at least still try to prolong the battle.

Who knows? Maybe such attempts to prolong the battle might turn into a huge comeback victory!

Until a fix like that is made, I won't be participating in Rated BGs even with the 4.2 change.

Okay the blues still didn't translate what the patch notes meant but if anyone got a better answer:

IS IT 2/3rds of the Battleground CAP? Like it requires if 2400 arena rating gives me 3000 conquest point cap would it be 2000 conquest cap in 4.2?
85 Human Mage
4475
And there is no longer a requirement to “grind” unrated BGs for Honor each season, so the real time investment isn't changing as much as some players are perceiving it to be.

On top of that, the frank reality is that the total time investment required in season 9 to get all your points has been much, much too low, as you could do that from a few 2v2 Arena games each week completed in less than an hour’s time.


If time invested is the issue, why don't you simply add an honor cost to all the items on top of conquest points, kind of like it used to be once upon a time? You can then double conquest point gain from RBGs or allow RBGs to give honor even when not at the conquest cap (or both) to keep the time investment for arenas and RBGs similar.

Now everyone will also have to grind honor for their items, but they can still get all their conquest points from either arenas or RBGs as they do now.

There are many ways to "fix" the time invested issue, just for the sake of all that is holy, leave the conquest caps alone. Forcing people into RBGs who do not want to be there is a horrible idea.


This "time investment" mentality shows that they still think PVPers feel battles are a grind when in reality, we play to battle. lol. We do not battle or PVP to gear; we gear to battle/PVP. Why is that such a foreign concept to them? In PVE you can play no matter your gear level at your own pace. In PVP if you don't keep up with everyone else with your gear level, then you can't play.
85 Tauren Death Knight
3200
Sorry if this was mentioned already but there is a problem with this

1) 5 wins to cap out your entire conq points for the week was too easy. the design team agrees because now you need 10+ wins if your rating is any higher than 1500 or so. this should have been implemented in the beginning and it seems like blizzard is having a knee jerk reaction to a) the ease of getting conq points thru arena and b) the lack of participation in rated bgs

2) rated bgs seem like fun and all, problem is my server has no rated bg teams. I am on a small server and there is not a lot of pvp interest. it's hard as hell just to find arena partners, let alone 10 people who will all stay in group long enough to get wins. this is not a problem on bigger servers I am sure, but this change realllly punishes the small servers. a LOT.

in regards to #2, best case scenario is - after the patch, interest in RBG's goes up on my small server because it is now mandatory. so, someone like me gathers the handful of decent pvpers that I have found over the past month or two and set up an RBG group. even that would be tough but I think I can do it. the problem is, what about the rest of the server who doesn't get in my group?

what you are going to end up with is any random bill or sally making a RBG team for the sole purpose of conquest points. then, what you have, is basically random bg's that give conquest points.

I understand there are limited options when it comes to increasing participation but what you guys are doing is FORCING people to play something that they simply aren't interested in. what's next? you don't like that a % of people only play arena/RBG so you make it mandatory to clear PVE instances before you can queue? a little extreme I know, but this isn't too far off the way you are forcing people into bg's
70 Night Elf Rogue
2065
So, as many of you are interpreting this change, it is to encourage more participation in Rated Battlegrounds. We see the fact that participating in Arenas is by far the superior way of obtaining top-notch PvP gear, in terms of time investment, as a problem. If you want to maximize your Conquest Point gains in patch 4.2, you'll need to participate at least a little bit in Rated Battlegrounds.

We know this may not sound very appealing to those of you who have grown accustomed to spending as little as an hour a week getting the top PvP currency in the game via Arenas over the last couple of expansions. To put things in perspective though, the total number of items that can be purchased with Conquest Points today is much larger than what you used to be able to buy with Arena Points pre-Deathwing world explosion. And there is no longer a requirement to “grind” unrated BGs for Honor each season, so the real time investment isn't changing as much as some players are perceiving it to be.

On top of that, the frank reality is that the total time investment required in season 9 to get all your points has been much, much too low, as you could do that from a few 2v2 Arena games each week completed in less than an hour’s time. It shows that Rated Battlegrounds are currently sub-par in terms of the rate at which points can be accumulated.

We do feel this change is necessary to keep the time investment vs. high-quality item accumulation in check, even if it doesn't read well on paper. However, as always, your constructive feedback is welcomed. :)


Hi! Rated Battlegrounds aren't fun, and I don't like to do them. Why then are you (Blizzard) forcing a redesign of my playstyle from the past 3 years to remain competitive with what I enjoy doing? RBGs and Arenas are like Apples and Oranges. Forcing Arena players to do RBGS (let's be frank, you've been trying all expansion to force it on us) is an easy way to make conquest gain slow down. Because we simply won't do them. Period.
90 Draenei Priest
9485
Okay the blues still didn't translate what the patch notes meant but if anyone got a better answer:

IS IT 2/3rds of the Battleground CAP? Like it requires if 2400 arena rating gives me 3000 conquest point cap would it be 2000 conquest cap in 4.2?


Yes.

Your minimum overall cap will be 1500 (and some of those points will have to come from RBGs), and you won't be able to increase that cap from arena until you break about 2000 rating. The maximum possible cap from arena alone will be 2000.
100 Draenei Shaman
12820
Personally I think this is a horrible change.

All you're saying is that very few people do Rated Battlegrounds - the simple reason being that it's an organisational nightmare. Getting 10-15 people together to do a battleground is unreasonable - that's why nobody plays them.

All this is doing is forcing your player-base to play something that is poorly designed.
85 Human Mage
4475
05/13/2011 05:36 AMPosted by Ayani
So, as many of you are interpreting this change, it is to encourage more participation in Rated Battlegrounds


No offense, but have you stopped to think as to why Rated Battlegrounds are not popular?

Instead of trying to punish those who prefer arena as their PvP outlet of choice, why not try to make RBGs more accessible instead?

There are 3 BIG problems with RBGs:

Inaccessibility

To be competitive, you need a pretty strict team composition. 3-4 healers, 1 tank specced flag carrier, and 5-6 good dps. Yes, you could in theory pug a few people in trade, and queue up, but those groups will undoubtedly disband after a game or two because they simply cannot compete. Maybe on servers with a large PvP community putting together successful RBG groups is easy, but on a lot of them it is not. A recent devs Q&A mentioned the possibility of allowing 5-man groups to queue for RBGs. What happened to that?

Rating gain

It takes FAR FAR FAR too long to get to a respectable rating. I realize it's a little harder to gauge an individual's contribution in a BG than in an arena team, but the initial rating grind to allow our personal rating to hit our matchmaking rating should be much much quicker. In addition, there are many reports that the point gain/loss system doesn't really make sense. Some people lose rating as early as 1700, others have never lost rating after a loss even at 2900 rating. Some explanation on how the system really works would be appreciated.

Fun

I'm going to focus on the two Capture the Flag BGs here, but Gilneas is pretty terrible in this regard too. A lot of people simply do not find stacking healers and spam healing a tank with the flag for 20 minutes very fun. I realize you have been making changes to the vulnerability debuff to help in this regard, but frankly not much has changed. The playstyle that a lot of RBGs encourage is simply boring to a lot of people. Now, there are others who happen to enjoy them. Great! Why force everyone else who doesn't to do them?

Arenas and RBGs were meant to be alternate progression paths towards high level PvP gear. You are now breaking this formula for what to most of us seems like a horrible reason. Improve RBGs and make them more accessible to encourage participation. Don't punish those of us who prefer arena and can't or do not want to do RBGs.


Ayani says it best. My issue with it has so far stalled at accessibility being on a low population rp server with friends. My friends put pve first then pvp. I love PVP. So, now this forces me to choose between having fun playing on a server with my friends or doing what I love to do - PVP. Make it accessible first before you start pusing people into RBG's. We would love to play them if they were equally accessible, fun, and fixed. They are kind of broken as it is now.
90 Night Elf Warrior
6560
Eh I kinda find this silly because I figured this was all about "how long am I sitting in front of a computer logged onto to WOW".

I'd be ok if you guys were genuine about making Rated BGs fun but all I read is "Rated BGs take more time, effort, and in general you'll be sitting in front of a computer screen longer which is just like how PVE works so we want to encourage this when it comes to rewards." This has nothing to do about whether Rated BGs are a success or fun; it is all about time spent to make things equal with cumbersome PVE. Not cool.

The nature of PVE is that of time wasted, it is not efficient. Having to get 9 other people to play with, trash in a dungeon, learning a boss encounter - it all takes time. I guess this is what makes PVE "fun" but in all seriousness I enjoy PVP because it is streamlined. I waste less time in PVP and the time I spend goes to good use.

Another issue I have with PVE and one that I think makes gear much, much slower is that of individual reward. In PVP you can earn what you want guaranteed while in PVE the loot gods must be in your favor thanks to "randomness". So you get the satisfaction that we have to farm a raid boss once a week hoping we get decent drops when a lot of times the same crap no one needs drops - to put it blunt - WASTED EFFORT. Sure its fun killing a boss... maybe for the first few weeks, after that its a chore. If I could buy any boss item with Valor it would be different... which is essentially what we have in PVP and IMO is the better model.

I think the PVP model is far better as nothing goes to waste. You save time in virtually all facets of the game and it looks like you want to destroy that slightly. I mean why not make arena games award 10 points or better yet go back to the horrible honor grind system of Classic.

But I get it - 10 vs 10 arena is JUST like a 10 man raid! Ah ha... so the effort must be the same.. it all is so clear!

Anyway at least we still get over 1000 points in arena a week. I'll say it now:

I will not be surprised that in the patch after 4.2 you further nerf Arena points, just like you did in BC putting Personal Rating on everything making some gear unobtainable for the masses. You know its coming!
Edited by Nohman on 5/13/2011 6:35 AM PDT
85 Undead Rogue
2930

Blizz, please bring the A team back to work on WoW.


busy working on diablo 3


Edited by Mircov on 5/13/2011 7:03 AM PDT
18 Worgen Rogue
60

Blizz, please bring the A team back to work on WoW.


busy working on diablo 3


and

*coughTitan
100 Worgen Mage
11620
So, as many of you are interpreting this change, it is to encourage more participation in Rated Battlegrounds.
However, as always, your constructive feedback is welcomed. :)


Okay. I'll give it a shot. I think encourage is the wrong word. Force is more appropriate. If players want to get to the max points, then they are now forced to play rated bgs. I like the idea of rated bgs because I always wanted to see bgs from the perspective of two organized teams facing off. However I have no interest in joining a pvp only guild, and any pve/pvp hybrid that does rated bgs and raids regularly will likely require far too much of my time. I do have life outside of wow. So I am left with pugging. So is the minimum time investment you are looking for people to spend weekly to get their points only looked at for organized groups? Cause time investment is not just the time spent actually fighting. You need waiting queues, but more importantly, you need to get the group together.

With this new system, you are going to be forcing a much higher time requirement on those that want to pvp but aren't in a pvp guild. I remember back in wrath and in the begining of cata trying to form 5v5s. Everytime it was the same thing. Spend an hour trying to find 4 other people. After two or three losses( maybe a win or two in there, maybe not) one person with high standards drops. 20 mins later trying to find another person, someone gives up and drops. Now withtwo people gone, the other two are discouraged and I'm forced to call it. That's with just 5, how about 10 people? And poking around the internet I find that this indeed a problem right now. If you aren't in a pvp guild, rated bgs don't happen.

What about those people who simply do not like bgs? They like arena because of the team fighting without objectives and feel that the objective based combat of bgs is no fun. Those people are going to be at a continual disadvantage in the future because other people play rated bgs and then arena will gear up faster than them. Too bad so sad?

It just seems to me that you guys are forcing people to do things they dont want to do. If you want it take longer that's fine. But making people play rated bgs when they either cant or dont want to is rather discouraing.

On a side note, I would love to here an official response as to what exactly is blizzards desired time investment per week to obtain max points. I understand and agree that less than an hour may be a tad too low. But an evening spent playing should be more than enough time.

Rock on and be cool,
Zen
10 Draenei Warrior
30
05/12/2011 08:29 PMPosted by Zarhym
So, as many of you are interpreting this change, it is to encourage more participation in Rated Battlegrounds. We see the fact that participating in Arenas is by far the superior way of obtaining top-notch PvP gear, in terms of time investment, as a problem. If you want to maximize your Conquest Point gains in patch 4.2, you'll need to participate at least a little bit in Rated Battlegrounds.


If time investment is the problem, then you need adjust the amount of conquest gained from a single arena match. bottom line. If 2v2 is too quick for the investment then break up the brackets such that 2v2 gets 2/3 of the gain of 3v3 (the ACCEPTED end-game bracket that YOU decided to balance around and that a TON of the playerbase finds fun). Heck, make it 15 arena wins vs 2 RBG wins for cap if you want... people that enjoy arena will still do it because thats what they enjoy.

I really can't stress enough how bad it is to try and tell a playerbase how they should play a game. (notice i said "A" game, not "YOUR" game. because as soon as we started playing it and investing into the community it became ALL OF OURS.)

I know that you may not listen to me because i'm just one subscriber, i've been in this game a long time however. I have two subscriptions, 3 85s, more 70+ and a full page of alts. I have 12 people in my guild that came to the game because I told them how great it was.

Things you need to consider before implementing this change:

1) battlegrounds haven't changed hardly at all. I don't even really have to explain this one. there are so few battleground maps its frankly asinine. put some development time into giving the players a reason to even look at them again rather than seeing the same maps for 4 years.

2) Not everything has to be a 'raid' to be fun. Every single thing in this game could be balanced around a 5 man team. everything. It would probably be more fun to raid Cho'gall with 5 than 25 in all honesty, but the point is that pushing people to a 10 person model for the 'top end' progression doesn't mean that its more fun. It just means it requires more people to see if its fun.

3) really i should have put this one at #1, but i'm doing this on the fly... Your playerbase is not interested in Rated Battlegrounds as they are currently implemented. Let me emphasize... AS THEY ARE CURRENTLY IMPLEMENTED They lack the element of accessibility (spelling... it sucks). You looked at dungeons and raids and said 'hey, we need to get more players into this... lets create a system to put groups together where anyone can get going on their way to raid glory...' And then in the next breath said 'f*ck pvp, they need 10 players all grouped up on the same team'.

4) players that want to be competitive in the end-game that they choose (ARENA) should not be forced into finding more players to be consistently competitive at their chosen endgame.
If you want RBG to be the top, make the RBG accessible gear BETTER, but not allowed in Arena. I promise you, no one who plays arenas with any seriousness will complain about that change because all they want is a LEVEL playing field.

5) Arena does not = Dungeons. I don't know why you think this. the # of players being similar is the only thing about these two things that are alike. Don't make Arena subordinate to RBGs because it fits your model of what 'progression' should be. Arena is a seperate endgame for a lot of players.

This is the crux. You need to change the way RBGs are accessed if you want players to give a good g*dd*mn about them, and you need to actually put some development time into making them not the same old stale cr*p and keep the playing field level between Arena and RBGs.

As i've said above, i've really been playing this game a long time, and i've been coming to the forums for quite a bit of that time too. I have never made a post directly to a blue that uses the above language. I am not a whiner, i'm a reasonable, average player, and you are f*cking pissing me off with your lack of attention to what your players have shown you and I feel like i'm talking to a wall of screaming children. I have 'taken a break' in the past, cancelled a sub then come back... i won't pull the 'i'm leaving' card because my friends are involved in this as much as I am. However, I will tell you this: you are sacrificing my loyalty as a customer for the model that you want the game to fit. pay close attention to what your players are saying, and don't give me the 'this is only a small portion of the playerbase' B.S. line, because if Rated BGs had the numbers you wanted, this change wouldn't be necessary, would it?

I'm done talking, you'll do what you want like always. I just care about this stupid game too much i think. /disgustednerdrage
85 Tauren Druid
0
05/12/2011 08:36 PMPosted by Wirethrone
I don't think you understand that people don't care about battlegrounds


NOT this
85 Dwarf Shaman
2975
So your fix for rated BGs not being popular is making them the defacto method of gearing up...


I love the ingenuity guys...


Hey it worked in TBC right? When everyone did arena just to get gear they could PVE in.

Let me preface by saying I'm not the keenest about arenas but ill do them with friends. Arena is far more intense and stressful then RBGs could ever be (fact is when you die in arena you are done, if you die in RBG you'll just respawn within 30 seconds) and thusly those arena players deserve justly compensation for their trauma.
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