Ask The Devs #8 - Firelands (Answers)

87 Dwarf Paladin
9015
05/25/2011 10:11 AMPosted by Kaivax
We’ve decided for now that the Vashj’ir quest line along with the Throne of the Tides dungeon does a pretty good job of finishing the Neptulon story.


worst idea you have had this go round. You guys need to start living up to your promises you made to us. Your already a patch behind where you had planned on being, (I dont by the lame excuse you gave out, the fact of the matter is that you made things way to hard, and had to time it back or give us extra gear/time, aka your mistake not ours.) You destroyed archeology by removing path of the titans, so you have a secondary skill that is worthless, (which could of been awesome.) Now you promised a raid/5 man that you said your done with the the story line, or at least happy where it left off. Are you kidding me, stop halfway doing stuff and give us the level of content we are used to and expect from you guys, this x-pac is quickly becoming a total failure, not because of how hard stuff is, but the amount of bugs, lack of content, and the over all sense of everything being half of what it should be.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16400


Way to selectively dodge that question by choosing one with alternate wording.

10 Man Heroics are/were way harder than 25 Man Heroics, and less rewarding. Are there plans in Firelands to make them more balanced?


Thank you sir, this is what I was trying to ask
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90 Tauren Druid
14850
05/25/2011 11:57 AMPosted by Killada
This expansion they only care about raiders, rest of us get leftover content after their priority customers have done it and has it on farm. Forget about new 5m because catering to raiders is more important and vast majority of playerbase.


Our guild raids two and a half to six hours a week and we can get up to our 7/12 in one night if everything goes as plan within our schedule. We're far from hardcore but apparently we must be if we can actually, you know, participate in raiding for any period of time which is greater than yours.

You guys who cry and moan about gear or content but don't actually want to work for it are just as bad as the elitist who play this game.

Also, if this was strictly designed for the raiders, I really doubt they would have put so much detail in to their new daily questing hub.
Edited by Barada on 5/25/2011 12:10 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Hunter
9875
05/25/2011 10:11 AMPosted by Kaivax
We’ve decided for now that the Vashj’ir quest line along with the Throne of the Tides dungeon does a pretty good job of finishing the Neptulon story.


I'd just like to chime in and join everyone else who is appalled by this answer. This is ridiculous! You might even say it's a slap in the face!


...But seriously, Vash'jir and Throne of the Tides were awesome, but that storyline is nowhere close to being finished. We killed the leader of the Naga, but a lot of her forces are still inside the Abyssal Maw, along with a bunch of Faceless, and most importantly, Ozumat. We can't just leave this alone.
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- World of Warcraft
90 Undead Death Knight
12720
These answers are really disappointing. As many people have already said it seems like a real cop-out on the Abyssal Maw answer.

It's disheartening to read about how they aren't releasing Abyssal Maw in 4.2, there's only 7 bosses in the raid, and a daily area. Yet the patch has taken over 6 month's to come out. It just seems like they aren't trying as hard.
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87 Night Elf Mage
16740
Even on top of what everyone has said about how the Neptulon story is not complete, why exactly is Blizzard abandoning Vashj'ir? We had a huge zone, one of the most unique settings in the entire game, and you're going to completely ignore all of that in favor of yet another fire-themed instance? I've been going into dull fire and lava themed instances in WoW ever since Ragefire Chasm, and I'm tired of them. And yet you choose to devote all of your resources to even more fire raids, while completely eschewing adding in an aquatic dungeon using the much more unique Vashj'ir setting that you've clearly taken a lot of time in creating?

Why would you do that?


Because they don't have the time to actually put out content anymore so they just threw what they had into finishing Firelands.

It's the rush Cata launch all over again.

Really finding out we're done with Vash is probably the biggest disappointment I've ever had in WoW.

We don't even have dailies or anything as an excuse to go back there.




05/25/2011 10:11 AMPosted by Kaivax
f anything, we wanted to make sure that 25s weren’t significantly harder, since many of the 25-player guilds were convinced we were trying to force them to become 10-player raiding guilds.



Also wanted to touch on this, the entire point of making 10 and 25 man share lockouts and effectively being the same content was so that 10 man raiders could have the same challenge and loot rewards as 25 man players.

Most people will agree that 10 man raiding has been harder then 25 man raiding since launch just because there is no room for error in a 10 man group and even if you argue that there is no denying that 10man Hardmodes are harder then 25.

Yet now you say that instead of trying to keep both styles on equal footing like they were supposedly intended to be you've been trying to make 25 harder then 10?


Really?



Why do we even have these threads, the answers either make no sense or they completely dance around the question asked.
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85 Human Priest
2345
Our guild raids two and a half to six hours a week and we can get up to our 7/12 in one night if everything goes as plan within our schedule. We're far from hardcore but apparently we must be if we can actually, you know, participate in raiding for any period of time which is greater than yours.

You guys who cry and moan about gear or content but don't actually want to work for it are just as bad as the elitist who play this game.

Also, if this was strictly designed for the raiders, I really doubt they would have put so much detail in to their new daily questing hub.


You would be right, if I didn't raid.

LOL so that hub is supposed to last whole expansion?
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98 Night Elf Rogue
12195
05/25/2011 12:19 PMPosted by Moaraine
Why do we even have these threads, the answers either make no sense or they completely dance around the question asked.


Gonna have to agree on this one.
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87 Night Elf Mage
16740
...But seriously, Vash'jir and Throne of the Tides were awesome, but that storyline is nowhere close to being finished. We killed the leader of the Naga, but a lot of her forces are still inside the Abyssal Maw, along with a bunch of Faceless, and most importantly, Ozumat. We can't just leave this alone.


Oh but they can.

Seeing that they're so willing to just let something like the Nep storyline lie where it is it takes away any faith I ever had of other WoW loose ends being tied up.

As someone who enjoys the story there's really not much to care about anymore.
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85 Goblin Shaman
0
    The case for Abyssal Maw pitch was that we could reuse a lot of existing assets (the fights were to take place in a giant shelled demigod like Nespirah), and while we are willing to do that, we thought Abyssal Maw would just pale in comparison to the magnificence of the Firelands. So, we put all of our eggs into that one basket. We’ve decided for now that the Vashj’ir quest line along with the Throne of the Tides dungeon does a pretty good job of finishing the Neptulon story.


Umm, considering Throne of the Tides ends with Neptulon getting captured and Ozumat getting away, I have no idea how that could possibly be even remotely considered the end of Neptulon's and Vashj'ir's storyline.

Furthermore, from what I recall, Abyssal Maw was originally going to be an all underwater dungeon, which, considering how much I absolutely loved the underwater theme of Vashj'ir, I was really looking forward to.

That said, I'm also still kinda hoping that Abyssal Maw becomes a raid instead of just a 5 man.
Edited by Gixia on 5/25/2011 12:28 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Death Knight
12515
Q: What happened with the Abyssal Maw dungeon that was supposed to come with Firelands?Maryjanee (EU-EN), Espiritu (NA)

    A: Our initial plan for this raid tier was to have fewer bosses in Firelands and a small number of bosses in the Abyssal Maw. As we looked more closely at Firelands, though, we realized that it deserved more bosses. We also got excited about designing item art (and set bonuses!) that were very fiery in nature, and the Molten Front questing area was turning out to be really cool, so we ended up piling more resources into Firelands. That led to the decision to focus on one strong theme (fire), rather than a more diluted fire-and-water theme.

    The case for Abyssal Maw pitch was that we could reuse a lot of existing assets (the fights were to take place in a giant shelled demigod like Nespirah), and while we are willing to do that, we thought Abyssal Maw would just pale in comparison to the magnificence of the Firelands. So, we put all of our eggs into that one basket. We’ve decided for now that the Vashj’ir quest line along with the Throne of the Tides dungeon does a pretty good job of finishing the Neptulon story.


You're kidding right? Neptulon gets sucked up by Ozumat and then swims away. How is that a good ending? It's a giant cliffhanger!

From Bearhug on the EU forums

This just isn't true. The ending to the Throne of the Tides gives zero closure to the Neptulon storyline. In case you don't know what happened, I'll remind you. The last boss is a Valithria-esque fight where Neptulon has to be healed while the kraken Ozumat attacks him. Nevermind that there's no quest attached to this event, I can overlook that. Once Ozumat is defeated, he sucks Neptulon up into him and swims off in an event that happens so quickly that if you blink you probably will miss it. It was confusing enough as it was.

Now that is supposed to be the end? That was a sufficiently "good" ending? We don't even know if Neptulon is alive or dead at this moment! Are the Naga holding him? Did Neptulon kill Ozumat? Do the Old Gods have him? Who's running Abyssal Maw now? Did the Naga win? Why aren't we pursuing him? What happened to Neptulon's trident, the one that preview years ago said was so important and the reason why everyone was in Vashj'ir? It would be like ending a Spiderman movie the moment Mary-Jane gets kidnapped. I honestly don't see how all of these questions can be left unexplained and then scrap the finale to Neptulon's storyarch.

Now this is my own opinion, a comment like that just shows to me the disconnect between the people who make this game and the people who play it. Does Chriz Metzen the Creative Vice-President agree that this ambiguous mess was a "good job"? Does Evelyn Fredericksen the game's historian or the writing team feel that Neptulon's story was sufficiently resolved? Because if you actually went through the entirety of Vashj'ir and care about the game's lore, there's no way I feel you could come to the conclusion that it was a "good job".

The Abyssal Maw went from being a raid and instances, then to two unique instances, then to just Throne of the Tides and now finally to this. Similar to how there was meant to be a Firelands dungeon and look how that turned out. It's a cop-out!


Next thing we'll hear is the War of the Ancients raid was cancelled. I also understand you're trying to avoid Deathwing being a cartoon villian like the Lich King... But for how hyped up he was we've rarely seen him at all this expansion.

Secondly, speaking of lore. Did you know Dagran Thaurissan and Moira are still in BRD? Should probably check that out. Also that Renault Mograine, even though killed by his own fathers vengeful spirit is still chilling out in the Scarlet Monastery.
Edited by Varicose on 5/25/2011 12:58 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
14850
05/25/2011 12:19 PMPosted by Killada
You would be right, if I didn't raid.


I'll admit that I threw a pie on my face there since it's mostly a reflex action when I hear about so and so being catered towards raiders only.

05/25/2011 12:19 PMPosted by Killada
LOL so that hub is supposed to last whole expansion?


I'm not sure where you got that impression though. I very much doubt that this will be the last area in which dailies will be provided alongside of raiding content.

However, cutting out the Abyssal Maw in general was a poor decision especially for those who do not raid and for those who are interested in the continuation of the story. There is definitely less mileage in this expansion compared to the others at both this moment in time and when new content is released for non-raiders.

Whether it's raids, dungeons, or daily questing, Blizzard has really dropped the ball on this expansion and I think we both know how long those new dailies will stick around for until more are put in...
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87 Night Elf Mage
16740
05/25/2011 12:36 PMPosted by Varicose
Next thing we'll hear is the War of the Ancients raid was cancelled.


Waiting for it.

Also props to the EU poster, he sums it all up perfectly.
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60 Night Elf Druid
3905
05/25/2011 10:11 AMPosted by Kaivax
However, one of the final quest rewards available from the Leyara quest line in the Molten Front daily quest area will give you a chance to see another side of the former archdruid.


Is this reward on the PTR yet? Can anybody link it?
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90 Human Warrior
0
This just isn't true. The ending to the Throne of the Tides gives zero closure to the Neptulon storyline. In case you don't know what happened, I'll remind you. The last boss is a Valithria-esque fight where Neptulon has to be healed while the kraken Ozumat attacks him. Nevermind that there's no quest attached to this event, I can overlook that. Once Ozumat is defeated, he sucks Neptulon up into him and swims off in an event that happens so quickly that if you blink you probably will miss it. It was confusing enough as it was.

Now that is supposed to be the end? That was a sufficiently "good" ending? We don't even know if Neptulon is alive or dead at this moment! Are the Naga holding him? Did Neptulon kill Ozumat? Do the Old Gods have him? Who's running Abyssal Maw now? Did the Naga win? Why aren't we pursuing him? What happened to Neptulon's trident, the one that preview years ago said was so important and the reason why everyone was in Vashj'ir? It would be like ending a Spiderman movie the moment Mary-Jane gets kidnapped. I honestly don't see how all of these questions can be left unexplained and then scrap the finale to Neptulon's storyarch.

Now this is my own opinion, a comment like that just shows to me the disconnect between the people who make this game and the people who play it. Does Chriz Metzen the Creative Vice-President agree that this ambiguous mess was a "good job"? Does Evelyn Fredericksen the game's historian or the writing team feel that Neptulon's story was sufficiently resolved? Because if you actually went through the entirety of Vashj'ir and care about the game's lore, there's no way I feel you could come to the conclusion that it was a "good job".

The Abyssal Maw went from being a raid and instances, then to two unique instances, then to just Throne of the Tides and now finally to this. Similar to how there was meant to be a Firelands dungeon and look how that turned out. It's a cop-out!



Sadly, This.

I don't raid, but I have a bad feeling that raiders are going to get shafted completely at one point. Many raiders were not happy to hear about Firelands raid only containing 7 bosses, along with the dungeon journal spoiling the entire 4.2 raid battles itself.
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90 Undead Warrior
10010
Abyssal Maw, more like, ABYSSAL CRATER


OOOOOHHHHH SNAP
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85 Troll Hunter
7670
Oh look, a new Q&A post! I think I'll go read it!
*5 miuntes later*
....Oh wow Blizz, this is sad. Really, REALLY sad.

The Firelands and the new questing hub better be pretty epic to live up to your claims of "7 bosses are enough!" along side "Well, we don't have enough resorces to work on the Maw and the Firelands at the same time, so we want to make the Firelands great."

Most of the questions about raiding in 4.2 were sidesteped with doublespeak, or just down right responded too with "Well, we know this is an issue, but you are just going to have to deal with it" (Melee dps, I really feel for you guys right now.)

And do I even really need to point out whats wrong with your view of the Vash'ir plotline being finished?

I think I'm just going to pretend I never read any of this...
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85 Tauren Warrior
7090
Q: A majority of the fights in T11 favored having little or no Melee DPS. Are there plans to fix this? – Merissa (NA), Espiritu (NA)


A: We view this more of a class problem than an encounter problem. It used to be the case that casters really suffered whenever they had to move, which was the penalty they paid in order to make up for the fact that melee took a lot of extra damage. Nowadays, melee classes don’t really take that much extra damage, and we’ve also given casters a number of movement-oriented tools designed to keep their DPS from dropping as much as it used to when they are asked to shoot-and-scoot.

Whenever there are situations in an encounter that encourage grouping, the ranged often move into melee (with the occasional exception for hunters), but melee never move to ranged. Any of the fights that punish clumping also tend to punish melee more. We recognize all of these problems, as do many players, but it’s challenging to address them quickly. For example, without compensation, casters would suffer a lot in PvP if their movement tools were suddenly stripped away.

In the meantime, we don’t want to over-constrain encounter design, or worse, make it feel very formulaic by getting to the point where players expect the “melee fight” to be followed by the “adds fight,” followed by the “Patchwerk fight,” then the “ranged fight.” We’re making sure that melee have some fights where they can shine in Firelands. To use just one example, the Sons of Flame on Ragnaros tend to be better handled by melee than ranged.

I can accept viewing it as more of a class problem to a certain extent, but you follow up with explaining unwillingness to make class changes address problems.

Also, the "melee take more damage - ranged don't move and dps well" is only a secondary issue with T11 content.

The primarily issue centers on the ability to participate in key fight mechanics. If a guild struggles to down adds that cannot be safely attacked from melee range, they are strongly encouraged to stack more ranged to make the fight easier. If melee cannot easily meet positioning requirements for a fight that a guild is having trouble with, they are encouraged to stack more ranged. If melee looses a lot of uptime having to switch targets across a room... Or, a difficult fight is shortened by dpsing a boss in the air, unreachable by melee... T11 is strewn with such situations, with very few situations where a melee makes the fight easier to complete.

Another secondary issue is multi-dotting favoring certain classes, none of which are melee. Multi-dotting may be a good candidate for class tweaks rather than encounter, which may be your preference. Certainly, multi-dotting is potentially fun and involving for those who can do it, as is cleaving for melee, so I would hate to see opportunities for it removed from future encounters entirely.

Since the only solution to the primary issue, participation in key mechanics, is encounter design, encounter mechanics need to be flexible enough that 10 man raid groups can run groups that are either ranged or melee heavy depending on their players available rather than rigid requirement on dps type.

A great example of an involving and challenging raid mechanic that is still flexible to role is the Ice Tombs on Sindragosa. They definitely required a lot of coordination and involvement, yet were extremely flexible to being handled by any role of dps.

I am encouraged with the acknowledgement of the disparity between ranged/melee and the suggestion of at least one key mechanic where melee may outshine ranged, however the quoted response doesn't seem to indicate clarity in viewing the primary cause of the disparity.
Edited by Boarg on 5/25/2011 1:42 PM PDT
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