Raid Updates for 4.2

*sigh* I understand your point, I really do, but I don't think your grasping my personality. I feel that all things should be WORKED for not GIVEN. Nerfing this content is GIVING it to the people who wine about it being TOO HARD. If you want more on my stance on this Total Biscuit shares my stance on this you can find his reasoning here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndcysuEIqus


I watched the video earlier. I tend to disagree with him, and I suspect that he was looking for a reason to leave anyway. In any case, Blizzard made it pretty clear that they would be doing this before Cata launched (so I really don't know what the shock is to folks on the forums).

As to the "work" thing, I dunno... I would feel pretty stupid if I caught myself PAYING $15 a month to work (in a "game" no less).

I think that it is pretty much just a great way to let other less-skilled / more casual (or whatever) people see more of the game. I honestly think that, had the raiding remained at the same level of difficulty, you would have had one of 2 things happen.

1) you never got to finish your progression because the bulk of raiders stopped wasting time with the old raids with crappier loot

2) when you finally did get to finish, it was on an achievement run with guildies that are toting gear from the Firelands (or later) raid... which is the same thing as running it with nerfs when you think about it





05/24/2011 06:45 PMPosted by Boraneus
As to you "Noob" comment I understand that it was "meant" to be a joke or something but you need to realize that being called a Noob on the internet can offend people who can not hear the sarcasm in your voice and it can offend them. I know how to play the game and I will admit if I'm a noob in a cretin aspect but I feel the term noob does NOT fit me.


Agreed... it was out of line. And I apologize.
Edited by Keepsayke on 5/24/2011 7:10 PM PDT
05/24/2011 06:25 PMPosted by Hðlycow
@Keepsayke: I think the problem is that you are assuming that beating the content is the point. You're assuming that, above all else, I want to be able to walk into Firelands as soon as possible and down as many bosses as I can, as quickly as I can. The thing is, that's not the reason I play. I don't play for purples, or even to be able to say I've downed so-and-so. I play, and raid, for the experience of getting a group of friends together to go up against something that challenges us.


I get where you are coming from. I actually do. All I am saying is that, at the pace you are proceeding, you will be facing nerfs regardless.

Even if Bliz never nerfed this content, it would only be a month or two before most raiders outgeared the current raids anyway... so whatever group you ended up finishing the current raids with would be overgeared to the point of the dungeon being "nerfed" for all intents and purposes.

So even with ZERO nerfs, you will NOT be finishing the dungeon as it's true level of difficulty.


Edited by Keepsayke on 5/24/2011 7:25 PM PDT
100 Blood Elf Paladin
6160
Woot easier time gearing alts.
85 Draenei Priest
9435
Only the NORMAL 10/25 encounters are being adjusted...NOT the heroic....geez always got to have griefers complainig about nerfs...plz get over your self.

Thanks and have a nice day :)
05/24/2011 06:32 PMPosted by Crankey
But what you also don't get is that there are many people who want challenge, that want something to look forward to and feel deserved. They don't want content to just run through it, hit the end and say game over, they want ways to be kept busy, experience the same thing as their guildies or friends in the past had or experience the lore with the appropriate difficulty.


If you do not finish a given raid before the next tier opens up, you will NEVER experience the raid "at the appropriate difficulty".

This is because gear advances, and the odds are near 100% that SOMEONE in your raiding party will be wearing some of those gear upgrades. That is just the nature of this game (and always has been).
85 Night Elf Druid
11510
I was originally upset over this change, until I understood its purpose. T11 will soon be old content, they want to provide a stepping stone into Firelands. Firelands will probably be the same difficulty as T11, so it makes no sense to have T11 and T12 to be equally difficult (with approriate level of gear) yet T11 give inferior loot to Firelands. If this gets more people into raiding, then I fully agree.

If you still want to be challenged in Teir 11 raid content, you can always do heroic. Heroic is not being changed AT ALL.

I checked the armory profiles of many people who are posting in this thread, and none of them have even touched heroic raids yet are complaining about this nerf.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
6160
Went back and read some replies...

There is really no point at being angry at this change.

If you haven't finished the normal content yet, you'll probably still be challenged even with this nerf. And even if you aren't challenged after the nerf because the nerf made it too easy, then you still have the very hard heroics to be challenged by.

So... umm... yeah... no reason to be angry.
100 Troll Warrior
11795
this is just sad GG blizz i hope your team making these decisions doesnt make the same style of decisions for Diablo 3, ruin the game for the majority for the Loud And Stupid Minority. GG PvP only for me now.
94 Undead Warlock
6565
Good change and I echo the post above mine. I don't understand the reasoning against this change. Keep it difficult for people that have done it already and won't be running it anymore? Why and how does that make any sense at all?
82 Blood Elf Death Knight
12560
As a member of a guild that is composed of both casual and hardcore raiders, I fully support this change.

(One thing I tend to keep in mind is that the hardcore raiding crowd is a minority in any population. They might be the loudest, but on any server, they're the minority...and rightfully so. The largest part of any MMO population are going to be your 'casuals,' the people who log in maybe once every few days or every weekend, talk more about work than theorycrafting, and still have issues with heroic dungeons. What I also keep in mind is that hardcore raiders often forget that the game is not all about them.)

As of 4.2, the raids that are affected are no longer 'top-tier' raiding instances - they simply 'don't matter anymore' to the hardcore raiding crowd, who will be rallying towards the Firelands. Face it, hardcore raiders are pretty much done with the current content: BD, BOT, TO4W, those raid instances will be as empty Naxx was when Ulduar came out, when Ulduar was when TOC came out, and as TOC when ICC came out. Those raids won't be run to obtain BIS gear, but mostly for fun. I support it because some people are just slower than others when it comes to progression, but progression much be made, however slow.

The raiders who are complaining about these changes? For the most part, they're done with those raids. This doesn't affect them at all. Sure, it makes their struggles seem cheapened, but who cares? It's like complaining that the stereo you paid $1,000 to have two years ago can now be bought for $250: you got what you wanted out of it, so why complain? See those war glaives that used to be so hard to get with a 25-man raid? A party of ten can waltz right on in, bulldoze everything in sight, and get one or two on a lucky night.

My argument is that nerfing old content is actually a good thing, simply because it's old content: it gives a lot of casual players (the people who make up a significant portion of Blizzard's subscriber base) a chance to go through content that, in all probability, really would be too hard for them. From the designers' point-of-view, the last thing they want is for anyone to feel as though they've hit a wall in the game: hitting a wall means no progress, no progress means no satisfaction, no satisfaction means cancelled subscription. These casuals? They hit the wall on heroics, not even edging out into first-tier content. If Blizzard didn't do something, they'd quit. Those people aren't just lost revenue for the corporation, those people are crafters, gatherers, sellers, buyers, PVPers (or the free HKs we all know and love), pet and mount collectors, those people who affect us in ways that go beyond the raid instances. These people might seem like morons most of the time, but in the game world, we need them to stick around. Blizzard's throwing people like that a bone, albeit a recycled one.

As for the hardcore raiding crowd? New challenges up ahead. No time be like the dog on the haystack, keeping people away from stuff they themselves have no use for.
Edited by Misanthropic on 5/24/2011 7:54 PM PDT
85 Goblin Hunter
1550
Looks like Blizzard is going back to WotLK way of thinking.

1. one raid per tier
2. nerfing heroics to the ground
3. nerfing raiding to the ground
4. We will be able to get raiding gear for doing heroics

Just like TotalBiscuit said "These are the guys just a few months ago were posting big grand blogs saying "Dungeons are Hard" then proceeded to nerf them into the ground then saying "Raiding is hard" then now preceding to nerf them to the ground. It just goes to show you that Blizzard cannot stick to there guns anymore."

I for one totally agree with him. I myself haven't completed 12/12 normal content, and believe it or not I'M OKAY WITH THAT. I don't have to do every single thing in the game. I don't get why you have to nerf it when we are going to get raiding level gear from heroics so we will already out gear the raid.

If i sound snarky or disrespectful in any way i'm sorry, its just i'm passionate about this game and when i see blizzard screw up i'm going to call them out on it. Because i care.
So letting a bunch of unskilled players into a hard raid is just ok?
100 Troll Warrior
11795
Looks like Blizzard is going back to WotLK way of thinking.

1. one raid per tier
2. nerfing heroics to the ground
3. nerfing raiding to the ground
4. We will be able to get raiding gear for doing heroics

Just like TotalBiscuit said "These are the guys just a few months ago were posting big grand blogs saying "Dungeons are Hard" then proceeded to nerf them into the ground then saying "Raiding is hard" then now preceding to nerf them to the ground. It just goes to show you that Blizzard cannot stick to there guns anymore."

I for one totally agree with him. I myself haven't completed 12/12 normal content, and believe it or not I'M OKAY WITH THAT. I don't have to do every single thing in the game. I don't get why you have to nerf it when we are going to get raiding level gear from heroics so we will already out gear the raid.

If i sound snarky or disrespectful in any way i'm sorry, its just i'm passionate about this game and when i see blizzard screw up i'm going to call them out on it. Because i care.


I Agree Completely
85 Human Mage
5375
btw, anyone else remember the reaction on the forums when blizzard announced that SSC/tk no longer had attunements? its dejavu all over again.

100 Blood Elf Paladin
6160
05/24/2011 07:50 PMPosted by Smoks
I don't get why you have to nerf it when we are going to get raiding level gear from heroics so we will already out gear the raid.


Because you're not going to get fully raid geared from heroics. Current VP stuff can be bought with JP, yes. But Current VP stuff != full raid gear o_O

05/24/2011 07:51 PMPosted by Alemor
So letting a bunch of unskilled players into a hard raid is just ok?


What do you mean by this? Lol.
100 Draenei Shaman
16305
Blizzard seems to always go overboard on changes. They never "tweak" things, they make massive changes, first one way and then another.

Granted the 4.1 raids will be old content, and I do agree with the idea of tweaking them easier so that the lesser skilled players can do them, but they have gone overboard with massive sweeping changes to all the bosses, all at once.

Make a few changes to the some of the harder aspects of the raids, then if that is not enough, maybe a few more, and so. Just don't do everything all at one time.


70 Gnome Warrior
830
Not everyone has the time to bang there heads against the wall until they can finish raid content. People acting like they don't deserve to see the game if they don't center there lives around the game need to just shut up. Take your elitism and go jump off a roof head first.
85 Human Warrior
9740
My biggest question is when you said that gear 359 would be available for justice points. Would that include the tier pieces such as the helmet and shoulders or would you still have to kill Nefarian/Cho'gall/Al'akir?
85 Goblin Shaman
3700
05/24/2011 08:01 PMPosted by Hakkai
Not everyone has the time to bang there heads against the wall until they can finish raid content. People acting like they don't deserve to see the game if they don't center there lives around the game need to just shut up. Take your elitism and go jump off a roof head first.


The raid content isn't even remotely close to as hard as you and others make it out to be.
82 Blood Elf Death Knight
12560
05/24/2011 07:51 PMPosted by Alemor
So letting a bunch of unskilled players into a hard raid is just ok?

Sure, it is. Nothing says they're going to succeed or avoid getting themselves kicked, though. That's the thing all raiders have always known: your toon can have all the BIS gear, but if you suck, it's definitely going to show. Then they get kicked, and then you find someone else.

I haven't completed 12/12 either, and I'm perfectly okay with that as well, but at the same time, I understand that Blizzard wants to lower the barriers of entry into first-tier raids and heroics. I don't like the thought that the game ends at 85 for a majority of WOW's playerbase, simply because heroics are too damned hard for them. Along side that, I don't think Blizzard was incapable of 'sticking to their guns,' as TotalBiscuit would have said. I think Blizzard saw that the difference between the TBC crowd and the current crop of players was bigger than they had imagined, with more outliers, more representation among different age groups, and more divergent interests. Do I think a 70-year old man with heart condition, palsied wrist, and an annoying tendency to tunnel vision when tanking on his druid should be able to get a shot at beating TO4W before the next expansion? He probably won't, but once he stops tunnel visioning, he should have a sporting chance.
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