Raid Updates for 4.2

100 Orc Death Knight
7535
05/24/2011 07:09 PMPosted by Keepsayke
*sigh* I understand your point, I really do, but I don't think your grasping my personality. I feel that all things should be WORKED for not GIVEN. Nerfing this content is GIVING it to the people who wine about it being TOO HARD. If you want more on my stance on this Total Biscuit shares my stance on this you can find his reasoning here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndcysuEIqus


I watched the video earlier. I tend to disagree with him, and I suspect that he was looking for a reason to leave anyway. In any case, Blizzard made it pretty clear that they would be doing this before Cata launched (so I really don't know what the shock is to folks on the forums).

As to the "work" thing, I dunno... I would feel pretty stupid if I caught myself PAYING $15 a month to work (in a "game" no less).

I think that it is pretty much just a great way to let other less-skilled / more casual (or whatever) people see more of the game. I honestly think that, had the raiding remained at the same level of difficulty, you would have had one of 2 things happen.

1) you never got to finish your progression because the bulk of raiders stopped wasting time with the old raids with crappier loot

2) when you finally did get to finish, it was on an achievement run with guildies that are toting gear from the Firelands (or later) raid... which is the same thing as running it with nerfs when you think about it


05/24/2011 06:45 PMPosted by Boraneus
As to you "Noob" comment I understand that it was "meant" to be a joke or something but you need to realize that being called a Noob on the internet can offend people who can not hear the sarcasm in your voice and it can offend them. I know how to play the game and I will admit if I'm a noob in a cretin aspect but I feel the term noob does NOT fit me.


Agreed... it was out of line. And I apologize.


The thing is making a raid easier hurts players more than it really helps them.

When you keep the training wheels on a bike the person begins to rely on them and doesn't fully learn HOW to ride a bike. When these training wheels are taken off the person needs to learn how to stay balanced.

Now the person will do the two following thngs.
1) Cry and complain that its too hard.
2) With encouragement. They will keep trying till they get it.

The stance Blizz is taking is that when a group of people complain that its too hard they make it easier. To an extent this works, ex. finding a balance that makes the raid hard enough that the person learns but easy enough that its access-able to those that have a hard time learning.

The problem is that Blizz is saying that its OK to suck at the current raid content because we're going to nerf it eventually to the point that even the worst player can play it. This is bad because the players who are bad stay bad and the players who are new basically learn from the bad players. The players who are already good stay good because well lets just face it they've already cleared this. So now I ask what do you think happens to a person like me, who is about in the middle ground?

Well, I suffer.

My content that I find fun and enjoyable and somewhat challenging has now been stripped of its challenge, and do to the pace I play at I must either rush to finish before it becomes too easy and strip's my enjoyment from it, suffer from playing content that is now WAY too easy or stop playing altogether.

The fact that they are moving basically the entire tier11 set to JP is enough of a general nerf that they shouldn't have to nerf the entire tier of raid content. I can get gear easily enough that I can make it easier or harder basically with the gear I can get, but nerfing the raids takes away my freedom as to how hard I want to play the raid at.

If they want to make the raid easier they should just put in an easy mode NOT force others to play at the same level as people who cant move out of the fire.

Thank you for apologizing, happy to see that this discussion is staying in the mature bounds. :)
Edited by Boraneus on 5/24/2011 9:16 PM PDT
82 Blood Elf Death Knight
12560
05/24/2011 08:08 PMPosted by Veydan
The raid content isn't even remotely close to as hard as you and others make it out to be.

Nor is it as simple as you and others make it out to be. Remember, you've probably had months to get the encounters down to farm. These tweaks are for people who don't have that sort of time (and probably never will).
86 Troll Mage
4380
wow... yet again more nerfs. Well done blizzard before cataclysm you guys said that you made it too easy and that you wanted to see cataclysm be harder and it started somewhat hard and now you guys want to see it become wrath again. A lot of us want harder content that we strive to beat not good content nerfed down to our level. here's hoping you guys figure this out but for now goodbye
90 Night Elf Hunter
16215
05/24/2011 08:11 PMPosted by Boraneus
My content that I find fun and enjoyable and somewhat challenging has now been stripped of its challenge, and do to the pace I play at I must either rush to finish before it becomes too easy and strip's my enjoyment from it, suffer from playing content that is now WAY too easy or stop playing altogether.


Isn't that exactly the point, though? Strike while the iron's hot, get your BIS while it's still BIS, then drop it all like a hot potato once the next fun, enjoyable, and challenging set of encounters becomes available?

One of the points I've been trying to make is that this content you've been referring to? It's already old news. It's done. You're leaving the place. You're moving on to Firelands. That being said, why are you still in old content?

I offer a parable, an old Zen story.

Two Buddhist monks were traveling from monastery to monastery on their spiritual journey to enlightenment when they chanced upon a beautiful young woman standing by the bank of a stream.

Sorrowfully, the young woman could not cross the stream for the water had risen and it would ruin her silk robe. Without hesitating the older monk lifted the woman in his arms and carried her across, placing her gently on the opposite bank. The younger monk was taken by surprise – Buddhist monks were not supposed to touch women, let alone carry them – but decided to keep his silence, and the two proceeded on their journey for long hours without exchanging a word.

Finally at dusk the two monks arrived at their lodging and the younger monk could no longer hold his tongue. He turned to the older monk: “Tell me,” he asked, hardly concealing his reproachful tone, “Why did you carry that woman? We monks are not supposed to touch women at all!”

The older monk smiled amusedly and calmly replied: “I have let go of that woman many hours ago. Are you still carrying her in your mind?”
90 Human Rogue
9645
05/24/2011 07:50 PMPosted by Smoks
Just like TotalBiscuit said "These are the guys just a few months ago were posting big grand blogs saying "Dungeons are Hard" then proceeded to nerf them into the ground then saying "Raiding is hard" then now preceding to nerf them to the ground. It just goes to show you that Blizzard cannot stick to there guns anymore."


Funny thing is Blizzard IS sticking to their guns. Blizzard exists to make as much money as possible. The job of people who work for Blizzarrd is to make the decisions to make Blizzard as much money as possible. "Dungeons are hard" and "Raiding is hard" were made by employees, not the owners of the company. For all the prestige people on the forums give the devs, they really are just like a shift supervisor at McDonalds. They own whatever piece of the business they own because the people who hired them put faith in their ability to make MORE money for the company. If they were good employees, they would fix their mistakes @ the first sign of dropping subs, not make posts saying just stick with it or its ok. Decisions like that have a way of ending your career; not just in one company but in an industry. Thats why few PROFESSIONALS diplay the hubris of the earlier posts.

Side note- if you are complaining about the nerfs, and havent finished the tier; you are every bit the whiny entitled QQ'er that you claim "casuals" are. If you had the skills, the tier would be over for you. You would be demanding to see 4.2 and the new raid. I could even use the phrase bandied abot here "L2P" but you already knew that.

I am only 1/13 but that makes me 10 best 10 man on my server.
I don't care if I see the hard modes. (maybe the 13th boss but meh)
I can gear up my alts easier, and more people can see the work the devs put in.
Most importantly, maybe subs will go back up, more money for Blizzard and WOW and maybe just maybe we can have nice things again...
100 Orc Death Knight
7535
05/24/2011 08:21 PMPosted by Kabbie
My content that I find fun and enjoyable and somewhat challenging has now been stripped of its challenge, and do to the pace I play at I must either rush to finish before it becomes too easy and strip's my enjoyment from it, suffer from playing content that is now WAY too easy or stop playing altogether.


Isn't that exactly the point, though? Strike while the iron's hot, get your BIS while it's still BIS, then drop it all like a hot potato once the next fun, enjoyable, and challenging set of encounters becomes available?

One of the points I've been trying to make is that this content you've been referring to? It's already old news. It's done. You're leaving the place. You're moving on to Firelands. That being said, why are you still in old content?

I offer a parable, an old Zen story.

Two Buddhist monks were traveling from monastery to monastery on their spiritual journey to enlightenment when they chanced upon a beautiful young woman standing by the bank of a stream.

Sorrowfully, the young woman could not cross the stream for the water had risen and it would ruin her silk robe. Without hesitating the older monk lifted the woman in his arms and carried her across, placing her gently on the opposite bank. The younger monk was taken by surprise – Buddhist monks were not supposed to touch women, let alone carry them – but decided to keep his silence, and the two proceeded on their journey for long hours without exchanging a word.

Finally at dusk the two monks arrived at their lodging and the younger monk could no longer hold his tongue. He turned to the older monk: “Tell me,” he asked, hardly concealing his reproachful tone, “Why did you carry that woman? We monks are not supposed to touch women at all!”

The older monk smiled amusedly and calmly replied: “I have let go of that woman many hours ago. Are you still carrying her in your mind?”


You may want to read my older posts I think you missed a few things, like my reason for being slow to finish.
90 Blood Elf Warlock
8035
I have to firmly disagree with the way this is being handled. What happened to Blizzard's initial view point with this patch that "Dungeons are hard?"
This irks me. Blizzard is pandering to the minority of players that post in the forums who feel the need to whine. And not to the moderate and hardcore players.
I wish you would take another look at this decision.

I do believe others have brought this up before, but after loosing 600k subscribers, the last thing you should do is make the game like it was in Wrath. People began Cata with the idea that it would go to a higher level of game play that they had never seen before. Now it is becoming a joke and people are getting bored. Making the joke drag on is going to lose you more subscribers.
Edited by Vikku on 5/24/2011 8:31 PM PDT
85 Troll Priest
5035

I am only 1/13 but that makes me 10 best 10 man on my server.
I don't care if I see the hard modes. (maybe the 13th boss but meh)
I can gear up my alts easier, and more people can see the work the devs put in.
Most importantly, maybe subs will go back up, more money for Blizzard and WOW and maybe just maybe we can have nice things again...


WoW will never have nice things as long as Blizz decides to hold the hand of every bad player through everything. Bad players will be bad players no matter how easy Blizz makes the content, they will constantly QQ about it being too hard, and when they actually do something that is made extremely easy for them (like normal 85s or even tier 1 heroics now), they whine it is too easy.

Blizz CAN'T cure bad players of being bad. It's not a problem within the game, it's a problem with the players. So rather than try to do the impossible and ruining the game for others, they should focus on the problems they can fix, on making the game for people who don't have this problem.
70 Gnome Warrior
830
Maybe you just don't understand that time is an issue with casual gamers. Why do you think WOTLK had more people playing? Content was available to everyone, casuals had there raids to play in and so did the hardcore. You guys are acting like this will effect you somehow in reality the only way it could is for the positive. More money = more content.
70 Gnome Warrior
830

I am only 1/13 but that makes me 10 best 10 man on my server.
I don't care if I see the hard modes. (maybe the 13th boss but meh)
I can gear up my alts easier, and more people can see the work the devs put in.
Most importantly, maybe subs will go back up, more money for Blizzard and WOW and maybe just maybe we can have nice things again...


WoW will never have nice things as long as Blizz decides to hold the hand of every bad player through everything. Bad players will be bad players no matter how easy Blizz makes the content, they will constantly QQ about it being too hard, and when they actually do something that is made extremely easy for them (like normal 85s or even tier 1 heroics now), they whine it is too easy.

Blizz CAN'T cure bad players of being bad. It's not a problem within the game, it's a problem with the players. So rather than try to do the impossible and ruining the game for others, they should focus on the problems they can fix, on making the game for people who don't have this problem.


Yeah I'm sure blizzard want's to go with a model that only caters to the 10% and ignores the other 90%. Way to get them subs up.
85 Troll Priest
5035
05/24/2011 08:31 PMPosted by Hakkai
Maybe you just don't understand that time is an issue with casual gamers. Why do you think WOTLK had more people playing? Content was available to everyone, casuals had there raids to play in and so did the hardcore. You guys are acting like this will effect you somehow in reality the only way it could is for the positive. More money = more content.


Wrath had a lower number of increased subs than BC did, possibly even less than Cata did at first.

Time isn't an issue, most people who don't have the time are mature enough to release that they CAN'T see everything, and they accept this. Most guilds raid 6 hours a week. That's hardly the amount of time necessary in Vanilla or BC, and they still clear this so called "too hard" content.


Yeah I'm sure blizzard want's to go with a model that only caters to the 10% and ignores the other 90%. Way to get them subs up.


Yeah, cause Wrath brought 90% of the current player base and not BC/Vanilla. Oh wait.
Edited by Scubasage on 5/24/2011 8:36 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Warlock
8035
Yeah I'm sure blizzard want's to go with a model that only caters to the 10% and ignores the other 90%. Way to get them subs up.

Their subs are way down and keep going down because of the reactions Blizzard are giving their customers.
90 Human Rogue
9645
05/24/2011 08:28 PMPosted by Scubasage
Blizz CAN'T cure bad players of being bad. It's not a problem within the game, it's a problem with the players.


The funny thing is the "good" players - those fairly well into H. raids, are not complaining abou tthis. Its only the wanna be elites that are. you know, the ones who want to sit in Org/SW on their mounts and look pretty. The ones who want a challenge (and deserve it by being good enough to complete the tier as it is) WANT 4.2 now and don't care about the current tier, its as old to them as Naxx/ICC.

I want subs back up for this game.
I want less stress for those playing pivotal roles in raids and more "fun"

I would love to see ZA/ZG nerfed. My main did each once for the achievement, and never went back. Risk/reward is out of whack. I got all my tier mainspec and some offsepc-will finish with points from raiding. Its just wrong when my HPS have to double from what I do in raids just to keep people alive in a 5 man that drops lower gear. My main alt as only finished 1 pug out of 9. The runs usually die at first boss with people screaming everyone else sucks. To me that is exactly what this new difficulty level brought us. People so stressed in a GAME they nerd range at everyone else.
85 Undead Warlock
2650
This change is awesome, but it should happen during raid content similar to how it was done in ICC. I know everyone won't agree on that because they feel it makes it to easy, but I have found in my experience of raiding, more people quit because content is to hard. Again, in my experience I hardly see people quit WoW because they feel the game has just become to easy.

This is a great change, and adding an ICC style buff to Firelands after its been out for a month or two would be an even greater one.
70 Gnome Warrior
830

Maybe you just don't understand that time is an issue with casual gamers. Why do you think WOTLK had more people playing? Content was available to everyone, casuals had there raids to play in and so did the hardcore. You guys are acting like this will effect you somehow in reality the only way it could is for the positive. More money = more content.


Wrath had a lower number of increased subs than BC did, possinly even less than Cata did at first.

Time isn't an issue, most people who don't have the time are mature enough to release that they CAN'T see everything, and they accept this. Most guilds raid 6 hours a week. That's hardly the amount of time necessary in Vanilla or BC, and they still clear this so called "too hard" content.


If blizzard announced that they will make content available to you would you come back? Specially if you couldn't do so before? Imagine you have a job that doesn't let you actively raid whenever you want. What keeps you playing the game after your done with heroics and battlegrounds? Raids is where everyone wants to be, so let us experience it. There is no reason not to let us see it even if it's ridiculously easy. Where not competing with you so stop acting like this will effect you in any way.
Edited by Hakkai on 5/24/2011 8:43 PM PDT
85 Troll Priest
5035
Blizz CAN'T cure bad players of being bad. It's not a problem within the game, it's a problem with the players.


The funny thing is the "good" players - those fairly well into H. raids, are not complaining abou tthis. Its only the wanna be elites that are. you know, the ones who want to sit in Org/SW on their mounts and look pretty. The ones who want a challenge (and deserve it by being good enough to complete the tier as it is) WANT 4.2 now and don't care about the current tier, its as old to them as Naxx/ICC.

I want subs back up for this game.
I want less stress for those playing pivotal roles in raids and more "fun"

I would love to see ZA/ZG nerfed. My main did each once for the achievement, and never went back. Risk/reward is out of whack. I got all my tier mainspec and some offsepc-will finish with points from raiding. Its just wrong when my HPS have to double from what I do in raids just to keep people alive in a 5 man that drops lower gear. My main alt as only finished 1 pug out of 9. The runs usually die at first boss with people screaming everyone else sucks. To me that is exactly what this new difficulty level brought us. People so stressed in a GAME they nerd range at everyone else.


There's more than just good and bad players. The "good" players, as you term them, are as small a minority as those bad players.

It's the average players that get shafted by this mindset Blizz is taking. That's what I have the issue with.

I also say that ZA/ZG shouldn't get nerfed, in fact, I dislike that they nerfed the eagle boss in ZA already. Before, it was actually difficult for me to heal through it (assuming players didn't spread out and kill eagles quickly), but now, well, only 2 ilvls later, it's a joke because of the nerf. I don't want to be able to go into there and carry bad players, I want the bad players to learn to pick themselves up and get better.


If blizzard announced that they will make content available to you would you come back? Specially if you couldn't do so before? Imagine you have a job that doesn't let you actively raid whenever you want. What keeps you playing the game after your done with heroics and battlegrounds? Raids is where everyone wants to be, so let us experience it. There is no reason not to let us see it even if it's ridiculously easy. Where not competing with you so stop acting like this will effect you in any way.


I quit during Wrath. Why? it was boring because things in general were too easy. I'm not a highly skilled uber raider, so hard modes don't interest me. But the normal modes were easy, and 5 mans even easier. 5 mans were such a joke, in fact, that I quit before hitting 80.

Why did I come back during Cata, and why did I raid? Because they brought back the idea of having challenge in the game for the average player. Not the highest of the high, but the regular joe you see all over the place.

If you want to be in raids but can't experience it because your time constraints are too much IRL, and you are bored with the content that you CAN do with said time constraints, then maybe a different game is in order.

I travel 2 hours to get to school every morning, and 2 hours to get back home after. I play on my DS during that time. If I'm bored with a game that I can't finish because I only play in half hour sessions before changing bus or taking a nap, I switch game. I don't demand that the game becomes easier so I can finish it.

More people need to learn to accept their limitations and accept that they CANNOT do everything or experience everything. It's not possible at all.
Edited by Scubasage on 5/24/2011 8:49 PM PDT
86 Troll Mage
4380
times not an issue the issue comes in when the casual players begin to feel entitled to see endgame bosses be defeated by them. if times so much of an issue then just go for the low hanging fruit in raids like the opening bosses or argoloth. its not fair that people who do devote the time to try and enjoy the content get punished because people like you complain about only having six seconds a day to play and thus now people who actually devote more time to the game now only get to enjoy content that is barely fun or challenging. I'm a casual too however i dont care if i may never down heroic sinestra im perfectly fine with doing slow progressions with my guild when I can. and plus screw more content if all i and everyone else gets is content that can be done very easily and provides no challenge that I need to improve my skill to beat.
90 Human Rogue
9645
05/24/2011 08:43 PMPosted by Scubasage
I don't want to be able to go into there and carry bad players, I want the bad players to learn to pick themselves up and get better.


I want to play with fun people. I do not care if they are "bad" or "good" I would rather spend an hour with a total n00b who is funny and laugh and enjoy then with a jerk who is a great player.

I have done this in every MMORPG I have played, from EQ to WOW. The challenge gets old (or maybe at some point you grow up) and then you realize this really is just a way to pass time. Its not life or death.

Edit -spelling
Edited by Ravenrose on 5/24/2011 8:48 PM PDT
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