I'm Speaking from the Heart, Blizzard.

85 Human Warlock
2670
If you want hard raid content the Firelands is there for you.

What we are seeing is just obsolete content getting nerfed to people can get geared easier for Firelands.


They did that by allowing T11 to be purchased with JP come the next patch.
They didn't need to nerf content.


Right because completing content is all about the gear and not the player..........oh, wait?
71 Human Warrior
4290
05/24/2011 01:06 PMPosted by Bashiok
It's always been our intent to offer new raid tiers in Cataclysm that are difficult to provide challenge to the raiding guilds, and then gradually allow older content to self-nerf as people gear up through VP, and then eventual literal nerfs to the content. That's something we've been communicating for some time

Wouldn't the extra chances to gear up ("buffing" the players) be enough to grant us players a second, improved chance at success? Is it truly necessary to nerf the content?

Granted, I can't say I've raided in Cata, but from what I've read, it doesn't seem more difficult other than a much tougher (compared to Wrath) barrier of entry due to gear.
Edited by Zoelle on 5/24/2011 1:43 PM PDT
85 Draenei Hunter
8160
TBC was the best!
90 Human Paladin
9475
05/24/2011 01:37 PMPosted by Blackriver
Sure, Bashiok, that's all fine and dandy, but did Magmaw really need nerfing? C'mon now.


On the other hand, does it really matter if Mag gets nerfed? Most of us have killed him quite often.
85 Dwarf Paladin
12345
if this doesn't effect you personally why do people care? let the casual guilds have fun with bosses they were struggling with.

Its just a nerf, not the end of the world.
85 Troll Priest
5035
05/24/2011 01:26 PMPosted by Cyberweasel
I don't believe blizz has ever truly supported literal nerfs to regression content for the sake of making it accessible ever.


30% ICC buff, anyone?


The important thing that all you people who talk about the 30% ICC buff seem to be forgetting is when he said "regression content". ICC was current content, not regression content, nothing came after it (Ruby sanctum was not above ICC).
64 Goblin Priest
RED
520
If Firelands is to receive the same treatment then there has to be some sort of reward that players get out of it for doing it when it is actually difficult, and not nerfed to the ground. Simply having the gear and getting a headstart for the next content patch isn't enough, - when everyone is going to be handed the gear and kills eventually. People will struggle and work hard on bosses, only to have it handed to other people eventually, which won't feel right regardless of if its a tier behind.

There were no sweeping 20-30% nerfs to Naxxramas, Ulduar or ToC/TOGC, so why now? Other than the loss of 600k subscribers, I don't see a rationale for this new course of action of trivializing every raid that people put effort into to a puggable 5-man level. If they want to see the fights that bad but refuse to actually participate in a raiding guild, then watch a youtube video of the fight.


It has always been about getting gear, achievements, and titles before everybody else. If you killed nef back in December or Janurary, Defender was actually a pretty slick title. Now it is quite common. If you are progressing ahead of the bubble you will get all of the cool benefits to being good at the game. Your gear will be significantly better than other people who aren't doing what you're doing. By the time they have access to your gear, you'll be far enough into the next tier that you can still feel superior in your own way.

Even so, the nerfs are only to normal mode encounters. If you have hard mode progression you have worked on, that will still maintain the same level of difficulty minus the buff players get from having firelands gear to go back and clear it with.
- World of Warcraft
85 Worgen Mage
3205
Plenty of people like the challenge, but not everyone has the ability or maybe even desire to be in a guild capable of tackling it right from the get-go.

It's always been our intent to offer new raid tiers in Cataclysm that are difficult to provide challenge to the raiding guilds, and then gradually allow older content to self-nerf as people gear up through VP, and then eventual literal nerfs to the content. That's something we've been communicating for some time.

Burning Crusade swung the pendulum one way, and Wrath of the Lich King swung it back too far the other. We're attempting to find that middle ground where there's still something brutally difficult for the cutting edge, but content gradually comes down until it's extremely accessible (ie PUGable) either simply through gear proliferation, or literal content difficulty nerfs.

There's always going to be two sides of the fence, some people want things more accessible for them and that's cool, we want it to be too, and some people think it should be difficult and always be that way because that's the way they had to do it. The fact of the matter is that as an MMO the end-game bar is constantly being raised, and progression content is in general not a place where we're going to purposefully gate prestige through difficulty. There are some exceptions of course, hard modes and unlockable bosses are purposefully there to be more difficult challenges, but as a whole our intent is to create a constantly moving ramp upward for Normal difficulty raids. That has to mean that the Normal raid content that was the hardest will one day be the easiest.

You will very likely see this same happen for Firelands when the raid tier above it is released.


It is not in my intention to give off that I'm trying to sway the intent that Blizzard has already set. Neither am I of the crowd of "I did it hard so, so you need to as well!"

My only statement is that content that people haven't experienced *is* new content for them. In my experience and understanding, the further that you nerf content, the easier it becomes for people to propel through raids, until they hit Firelands/Next Tier and then complain that it's again too difficult for them.

I'm fine with making it slightly easier for people, but just that - slightly. Why compromise the integrity and intent of your own raids, when they definitely are able to be completed?

I don't think that making them inaccessible for people is right. I'm with you on that. But I don't think that making it as easy as Naxx 25 was is a good idea either. That's all I'm saying, sorry if it comes off the wrong way. That's not my intent here.

05/24/2011 01:51 PMPosted by Lunareste
No, I want the content to remain just as challenging as it's ever been because the process of gearing up our characters through higher tiers is going to trivialize it anyway, and adding humongous nerfs on top of that is just going to set us back to WOTLK status where absolutely everything is going to be steamrolled by people who have no business attempting that content without learning how to be good players.


I strongly agree with this, Bash. What happens with people like me, who actually appreciate the challenge? What if, I go back on this toon, do the instance and it's not as fun because it's not as challenging as it was when I did it on my main?

Ah, I can sum up my worry and desire in one phrase: Replay Value.
Edited by Staccato on 5/24/2011 1:59 PM PDT
85 Night Elf Druid
9835
Plenty of people like the challenge, but not everyone has the ability or maybe even desire to be in a guild capable of tackling it right from the get-go.

It's always been our intent to offer new raid tiers in Cataclysm that are difficult to provide challenge to the raiding guilds, and then gradually allow older content to self-nerf as people gear up through VP, and then eventual literal nerfs to the content. That's something we've been communicating for some time.

Burning Crusade swung the pendulum one way, and Wrath of the Lich King swung it back too far the other. We're attempting to find that middle ground where there's still something brutally difficult for the cutting edge, but content gradually comes down until it's extremely accessible (ie PUGable) either simply through gear proliferation, or literal content difficulty nerfs.

There's always going to be two sides of the fence, some people want things more accessible for them and that's cool, we want it to be too, and some people think it should be difficult and always be that way because that's the way they had to do it. The fact of the matter is that as an MMO the end-game bar is constantly being raised, and progression content is in general not a place where we're going to purposefully gate prestige through difficulty. There are some exceptions of course, hard modes and unlockable bosses are purposefully there to be more difficult challenges, but as a whole our intent is to create a constantly moving ramp upward for Normal difficulty raids. That has to mean that the Normal raid content that was the hardest will one day be the easiest.

You will very likely see this same happen for Firelands when the raid tier above it is released.


I honestly have no problem if your developing team decides to nerf content to the ground, make it easy/medium/hard mode. Like in every expansion, with nerfs, buffs then again nerfs, I adapted, hence why I'm still playing my druid.

However, I will never get tired of repeating this: there has to be something else to do in the game that is not raiding. Yes, there is pvp too, and I used to pvp a lot, but since resilience it became unappealing to me. Most things you do in the game aims towards raiding. Now with the smart raid-ids, you get saved and have nothing else to do until the next week. Why hasn't Blizzard focused more on developing content that can enhance the social aspect of the game? So many posts related to the LFD tool from people verbally destroying each other. The casual/hardcore dilemma. I've posted suggestions before about ideas that could be implemented in the game that have nothing to do with character progression but more related to bring people together, to get them to know each other.

Back in Vanilla, when there was no LFD, a lot of people from different guilds knew each other because at some point they ran instances together, then talked about the experience, word-of-mouth and we could have long chats in /say that would drag more people into them. Today, you see 2 people talking in /say and more than one will tell them to shut up. Even though LFD is an option, people choose it out of convenience. People walked to their jobs long time ago. Then they used horses, then mass transportation. Would people go back to walking to their jobs nowadays? Probably not, because it's convenient to drive or use a motorized mean of transportation to get there faster.

I'm not going to hijack this thread and repost my suggestions here. If you want to read them, do a search and cast your opinion there.
90 Troll Hunter
11255
05/24/2011 01:06 PMPosted by Bashiok
but content gradually comes down until it's extremely accessible (ie PUGable) either simply through gear proliferation, or literal content difficulty nerfs.


It's already pugable, but not by people who stand in fire/can't do the simplest of things, literally the simplest. I mean I don't care about the nerfs because once FL is out I'll have better internet and a better guild, but bringing it down to such a level is just....weird.
Edited by Naumu on 5/24/2011 1:52 PM PDT
85 Goblin Rogue
7245
Don't care what they do to old content.

Maybe try playing a class that takes more than one button to win?

God it pisses me off when people flame Arcane when they don't even understand it.


Okay 2 buttons. :D
85 Undead Rogue
10850

There's always going to be two sides of the fence, some people want things more accessible for them and that's cool, we want it to be too, and some people think it should be difficult and always be that way because that's the way they had to do it.


I actually found this quite offensive. You think that I'm against the nerfing of instances because "that's the way that I had to do it"?

No, I want the content to remain just as challenging as it's ever been because the process of gearing up our characters through higher tiers is going to trivialize it anyway, and adding humongous nerfs on top of that is just going to set us back to WOTLK status where absolutely everything is going to be steamrolled by people who have no business attempting that content without learning how to be good players.

Of course this snowballs, they begin to steamroll Heroic instances and they begin to believe that is how the game was meant to be played. Then, when they can't trivialize content they begin to demand nerfs to the latest and most challenging things, which inevitably gets them nerfed.

So am I against "difficulty for the sake of difficulty"?

No, I'm against nerfing the crap out of these instances so that the precedent to return to 10 minute heroics and subsequently nerfing difficult mechanics and encounters in end game raids is never set.
85 Orc Death Knight
3305


Burning Crusade swung the pendulum one way, and Wrath of the Lich King swung it back too far the other. We're attempting to find that middle ground where there's still something brutally difficult for the cutting edge, but content gradually comes down until it's extremely accessible (ie PUGable) either simply through gear proliferation, or literal content difficulty nerfs.



This is the closest we'll get to Blizzard saying Wrath was way too easy. I also somewhat like this, you're just making the inevitable happen slightly faster.

Unfortunately, this change did cause TotalBiscuit to unsubscribe.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9765

I don't believe blizz has ever truly supported literal nerfs to regression content for the sake of making it accessible ever. Nerfs to content were implemented on the cutting edge of raiding to allow for accesibility to endgame raiders, and then the content was simply doable by others as they geared up, particularly with gear from later instances. The only time non-cutting edge content has been nerfed is if somehow it remained cutting-edge, or if changes in class mechanics made the fight prohibitive.


This is simply not true. They have been nerfing the previous Tier to some extent since BC possibly Vanilla if you count that the gear was much more powerful vs. the environment back then. (Anyone who raided back them remembers how once you started collecting the full purple suits, you could literally faceroll previous tiers, other players etc.)

I too would have a problem with this if it was the current Tier, but as it stands I just don't see this as any different than what has happened all along.

Besides, even the more serious casual guilds will be in Firelands by then.

85 Goblin Rogue
4260
Sorry but I completely agree with Staccato, other players may not have the guild or gear to see it down but if they really want to see it down then after 6 months of the raids being released no matter how little time you have to play it you could have gotten enough gear together by now.
No one wants to spend 6 months working on something and then as soon as accomplish it turn around and see that it's now going to be easier for everyone else who didn't put that same effort in. It's not about wanting a challenge, it's about the fact that any effort you put in pre-nerf means absolutely nothing. You have nothing to show for the fact that you tried harder and put that extra effort in. This will probably get downvoted like the op but regardless I've spoken my opinion.
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