I'm Speaking from the Heart, Blizzard.

100 Human Paladin
15365
05/24/2011 02:13 PMPosted by Glimp
So you want to breed new raiders into thinking content is easy so they can face plant in firelands and turn around to blizzard and get a a big ol' nerf... People in this game *!#!!ing that these, saying they are a good thing, are moronic. It a big care bear mentality that should stop but wont.


Did they grossly nerf T11 content while it was the end game even though tons of people have been complaining about it?
85 Blood Elf Paladin
3245
dood content is always nerfed as each xpac goes its life cycle, you will always have the notion/achiev of being one of the first to conquer it though.
85 Goblin Rogue
7245
They did that by allowing T11 to be purchased with JP come the next patch.
They didn't need to nerf content.


Not really, no. T11 is 5 pieces.
If you want any of the other meaningful gear slot pieces with higher ilvl, you'll still need to raid the T11 content.
It will just now be easier. And why not? It's for the best you elitist @#$che.


I seriously wish you people would stop using "elitist" in such a wrong context. Elitism has nothing to do with this.
Edited by Samanosuke on 5/24/2011 2:17 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
9475
05/24/2011 02:13 PMPosted by Glimp
So you want to breed new raiders into thinking content is easy so they can face plant in firelands and turn around to blizzard and get a a big ol' nerf... People in this game *!#!!ing that these, saying they are a good thing, are moronic. It a big care bear mentality that should stop but wont.


If you're in a decent raiding guild already, I don't see how this 'new' breed is going to affect you all that much.

This is what it gets down to, a lot of the qq is coming from people that will see little to no direct affect from these nerfs. It's just more complaining for the sake of complaining it seems.
100 Human Mage
11230
Burning Crusade swung the pendulum one way, and Wrath of the Lich King swung it back too far the other. We're attempting to find that middle ground where there's still something brutally difficult for the cutting edge, but content gradually comes down until it's extremely accessible (ie PUGable) either simply through gear proliferation, or literal content difficulty nerfs.

There's always going to be two sides of the fence, some people want things more accessible for them and that's cool, we want it to be too, and some people think it should be difficult and always be that way because that's the way they had to do it. The fact of the matter is that as an MMO the end-game bar is constantly being raised, and progression content is in general not a place where we're going to purposefully gate prestige through difficulty. There are some exceptions of course, hard modes and unlockable bosses are purposefully there to be more difficult challenges, but as a whole our intent is to create a constantly moving ramp upward for Normal difficulty raids. That has to mean that the Normal raid content that was the hardest will one day be the easiest.

You will very likely see this same happen for Firelands when the raid tier above it is released.


What does this mean about the final raid of the expansion? Will it not be pugable because there isn't going to be a tier above it?
85 Night Elf Mage
7110
Because most of t11 isn't already a joke, and with free 359 JP gear

LOL


It's such a joke that you can't finish normal modes, right?
65 Orc Hunter
770
I dont see why anyone should care at all. How does it impact you if people have an easy time doing old content? I fully understand why people wouldnt want to see current content nerfed heavily, but stuff thats 6+ months old seems like fair game to me. I dont derive so much self worth from this game that I need to hold people back from downing bosses I killed when Cata first came out.
90 Goblin Priest
11740
Plenty of people like the challenge, but not everyone has the ability or maybe even desire to be in a guild capable of tackling it right from the get-go.

It's always been our intent to offer new raid tiers in Cataclysm that are difficult to provide challenge to the raiding guilds, and then gradually allow older content to self-nerf as people gear up through VP, and then eventual literal nerfs to the content. That's something we've been communicating for some time.

Burning Crusade swung the pendulum one way, and Wrath of the Lich King swung it back too far the other. We're attempting to find that middle ground where there's still something brutally difficult for the cutting edge, but content gradually comes down until it's extremely accessible (ie PUGable) either simply through gear proliferation, or literal content difficulty nerfs.

There's always going to be two sides of the fence, some people want things more accessible for them and that's cool, we want it to be too, and some people think it should be difficult and always be that way because that's the way they had to do it. The fact of the matter is that as an MMO the end-game bar is constantly being raised, and progression content is in general not a place where we're going to purposefully gate prestige through difficulty. There are some exceptions of course, hard modes and unlockable bosses are purposefully there to be more difficult challenges, but as a whole our intent is to create a constantly moving ramp upward for Normal difficulty raids. That has to mean that the Normal raid content that was the hardest will one day be the easiest.

You will very likely see this same happen for Firelands when the raid tier above it is released.


You should add a special achievement or feat of strength that is only available for the highest raid tier so the people who complete it pre-nerf will feel like they got something the casual raiders most likely never will. When the next raid is released the FoS for the older raid will no longer be obtainable but there would be a new one for the new raid. This special achv/FoS would be in addition to the current achievements already in the game.


TL:DR
Hardcore Raider = receive FoS for completing raids pre-nerf & current achvievements already in the game.

Casual Raider = receive current achievements already in the game for completing raids post-nerf.
85 Goblin Priest
5195
If Firelands is to receive the same treatment then there has to be some sort of reward that players get out of it for doing it when it is actually difficult


No they don't. Access to the gear earlier is your reward.


And the titles, and the dragons, and the achievements, and the time stamps, and the world/realm first recognition.

Chances are people won't get their "icebound dragon" of the first teir for a very long time. People STILL fail at trying to do the Ulduar achievements and ICC achievements.

Those mounts are your reward.


Also, I thought this would get closed because it says "blizzard" in the title. I would have laughed really hard had I seen "This comes straight from the heart, Blizzard" LOL LOCKED, and then of course felt bad, but.
Edited by Thirteen on 5/24/2011 2:25 PM PDT
48 Gnome Priest
360
What does this mean about the final raid of the expansion? Will it not be pugable because there isn't going to be a tier above it?


I'm guessing it'll be a gradual ICC style nerf. The e-peen flexing will be at what % buff (that is what date) the kill was made on.
86 Worgen Warlock
11210
Anyone who is surprised about this is pretty dim. They have been nerfing old content for some time now. Have you forgotten about all those threads saying things like "Blizzard lost 600k subscribers, what are they going to do?" Well, this is a start. It could bring back some people and give others the incentive to stick with the game.

You also have to remember that the super hardcore make up a small part of the player base. It is in Blizzard's interest to cater more to the casual players. $15 a month is the same to Blizzard, whether it comes from a casual player or a member of Paragon. There are more players that fall into the "casual player" category. Do you see why they make these changes now?

Also, there seems to be a lot of players complaining who seem to be even less geared than me. It seems like these changes could only help you guys. The ones who have a legitimate reason to complain are those who are 13/13 Heroic. Not the item level 346 trolls who are just jumping on the bandwagon because they have nothing else to do.
Edited by Bartholamew on 5/24/2011 2:31 PM PDT
85 Goblin Rogue
7245
So you want to breed new raiders into thinking content is easy so they can face plant in firelands and turn around to blizzard and get a a big ol' nerf... People in this game *!#!!ing that these, saying they are a good thing, are moronic. It a big care bear mentality that should stop but wont.


If you're in a decent raiding guild already, I don't see how this 'new' breed is going to affect you all that much.

This is what it gets down to, a lot of the qq is coming from people that will see little to no direct affect from these nerfs. It's just more complaining for the sake of complaining it seems.


Though I don't really care about the nerfs, I'm not entirely sure if you know how it affects us. It really trivializes things, it'd be different if the current content was in fact hard and needed a necessary nerf, but the fact is it really isn't. People shout ineptitude and blame it on a lack of time/family/work/etc. while continuously asking for nerfs to content to cater to their time schedule not realizing that this game is in fact one that requires TIME.

The assumption is, most people will skip normal BWD/BoT/To4W to do Firelands, as it happened in Wrath. People will not raid old content unless it's for achievements because they want to have the current gear. It affects those raiders because that sense of challenge will be diminished by the mere fact of having it nerfed, not keeping in mind that the same content will be easier when people over-gear it (let's not forget that you don't need to be in full 359/Tier 11 to down the content). If you played Wrath, how easy was it to faceroll Naxx when you were in 232/245 ilvl gear?

I understand what Blizzard is trying to do, which is to get more people to see content. However I think it's a double-edged sword. How much do you want to bet that the forums will be filled with people asking for nerfs to Firelands content, while claiming ridiculous reasons for the nerfs like "I HAVE A FAMILY/JOB/SOCIAL LIFE TO WORRY ABOUT" or "I DON'T HAVE TIME TO RUN BWD/BoT/To4W, I WANT TO GET INTO FIRELANDS NOW"? Or how learning how to play a game "is a chore/shouldn't be a second job" while having the journal implemented and tons of already released video and strategies to help them? This is how a significant amount of threads in General read.
Edited by Samanosuke on 5/24/2011 2:34 PM PDT
I don't think it is appropriate to nerf the content this severely at this point. They have already amplified our ability to tackle these encounters with gear improvements made available by the badge changes and the ease that generally is associated with the earlier encounters in a new raid instance.

Think Flame Leviathan, Razorscale, Ignis, and Deconstructor of Ulduar. Measurably easier than the challenges set forth by encounters like Saphiron, KT, and Malygos, but still part of a gearing tier that allows for higher quality gear, and improvements in gear that would give players a leg-up in tackling the earlier content.
90 Troll Warrior
8695
If you're in a decent raiding guild already, I don't see how this 'new' breed is going to affect you all that much.

This is what it gets down to, a lot of the qq is coming from people that will see little to no direct affect from these nerfs. It's just more complaining for the sake of complaining it seems.


It has to do with recruiting. Even good raiding guilds have to recruit quite a bit because people quit the game for various reasons. We normally have a search going for 2-4 slots either to replace recent recruits that just didn't work out, people leaving the game, or even just needing specific specs to counter key mechanics on specific HM's.

When content gets very watered down it becomes very difficult to determine who is good or not. The gear flows too easily and they have "seen" previous content. The line between good and bad starts to blur and you end up gambling on what you hope is a decent player.

In my experience, recruiting from people that are experienced only in mostly easy content ends in a ~33% wash out rate. You invest a lot of time and resources getting someone good into a position to be an asset to the guild. Rolling the dice on someone you are unsure about isn't fun because you always worry that you'll spend a month gearing them and teaching them strats only to have to do it all again because they just couldn't perform like you need. Then you start gearing alts to fill key roles for specific fights while hoping you can find someone else to fill in for the guy using his alt.

Find good recruits is hard enough as it is. Watering down content to the extent 4.2 is doing to T11 content will only make it more difficult. On the plus side it will make gearing alts for specific fights much easier.
85 Orc Warlock
15100

Raid progression lead to only 1% and 4% of people doing the last raid. Sounds kinda fail from a resource allocation stance to me.


I'll disagree and say that the equality of oppurtunity that was shown in Classic and TBC (since I guess the 1% and 4% figures are Naxx 40 and Sunwell?) is far superior to the obsession over equality of outcome that was shown in Wrath. I think Cata so far has struck a pretty solid balance between the two paradigms and the nerfs to t11 content plus tier 2 heroic five-mans will work out pretty well if they don't go overboard with the Valor Point vendor for tier 12.

I think it's fine to nerf T11 content when t12 is released. I think moving everything that is currently on the VP vendor to the JP vendor will give everyone who is struggling or coming to the party late the means to move quickly through t11.

The problem is the T12 gear on the VP vendor. People will see it, just farm heroics, and completely bypass t11 for all intents and purposes. The solution would be to make the VP vendor for firelands only have a few odd pieces (rings, back, necks, and a trinket or two maybe?) but move Tier gear back to being a boss drop. The core gear every player needs to advance can then only be obtained by clearing raid content.

90 Tauren Shaman
15020
05/24/2011 02:23 PMPosted by Brin
You should add a special achievement or feat of strength that is only available for the highest raid tier so the people who complete it pre-nerf will feel like they got something the casual raiders most likely never will.


You mean like my Hand of A'dal? */flex* */flex*

Nah, that's silly. The reward is seeing it first. The challenge is the reward.

If they removed the Unique Snowflakeness of my special titles I really wouldn't be upset. What's funny is I got those titles playing at my worst. Then again, I really worry about people who don't learn as they progress.

--- Kahzregi
86 Worgen Warlock
11210
If you want hard raid content the Firelands is there for you.

What we are seeing is just obsolete content getting nerfed to people can get geared easier for Firelands.


They did that by allowing T11 to be purchased with JP come the next patch.
They didn't need to nerf content.
Like this troll in post 6. He has no reason to complain about easier with the gear he is wearing. But he acts like he is an expert when it comes to raiding.
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