I'm Speaking from the Heart, Blizzard.

85 Troll Druid
6920
I personally will be ecstatic to see my server's life come slowly back, if the damage isn't already irreparable. Will be great to actually have pugs to join.

Just because I have things going on, and a game is always supposed to be there second to real life happenings... I too should be able to enjoy the lockout system for raiding so I can pug part way with one group and pick up with another. This doesn't mean I cannot sit for 3 hours a night, it just means that the same night isn't always free each week. In the raging wannabe elites' eyes, I guess that makes me a baddie though.

Also Totalbiscuit is a tard, monotone driveling, moaning and whining he does in his videos are not even remotely intelligent and frankly, VERY boring. He goes on and on about how things should just blow him away with perfection when he's approaching a game that's the biggest on market and was (until now) THE most accessible to the general player base like he's surprised it's not only keyed just for him.

Anyone ever notice how these kids in heroic raid gear, can't spell to save their lives? Was just a random observation....
90 Gnome Death Knight
13415
The irony is that Blizzard drove a lot of less-hardcore players away with Cataclysm's tuning, in an effort to please the noisy raidcore jerks.

This thread proves they won't ever be happy. Way to shoot yourself in the foot, bliz.
85 Goblin Shaman
7190
Absolutely horid. Apparently Blizzard really can't get it out of their head that everyone has to have access to everything. Nerfing everything by this much one tier after we've finished it!?! Really!? I'm honestly baffled.

Your logic seems to be "Well if it's obsolete we'll go ahead and nerf it so everything can do it." Except that it isn't obsolete!
85 Goblin Rogue
7245
05/24/2011 03:16 PMPosted by Karmaze
While we're at it, let's point out the elephant in the room and let it be known that in fact players probably such as yourself aren't in it for viewing the content (Blizzard's intended purpose), you're in it for the "purples" so you can stand next to someone and either claim superiority or think you're hot stuff when you're wearing gear like those guys who did it pre-nerf. You (you in the context of people who make claims like this, which may or may not include you) are an ironic example of the meaning of "elitism" in this game.


Nnnnnuuuuuupe.

At least I don't see any indication is the case. Personal progression is fun. It's the reason why most people play games of this nature. It's also why there's a Tank/Healer shortage in Heroics. People want to see bigger numbers. Better gear gives them this feeling. Makes them feel more powerful.

That's why people want a bit of easier progression. It's not to feel "superior" to other people (might be a bit of projection there?), it's simply to keep the gear progression flowing for a larger part of the .subscription base. Nothing more, nothing less.

FWIW I do think the nerfs probably go a BIT too far. The mechanical nerfs are fine. But I feel the damage/health nerfs are too much, considering the easier access to gear coming in 4.2.

But not for a second do I think will it make people feel "superior" to people who've already done it. That's insane.


If your post was in fact the case then wouldn't "personal progession" be about doing it at its intended level? Wouldn't a 20% nerf diminish that sense of "personal progression"?

I'd feel shafted if I knew that everything I have done nerfed to easiness. How would I ever better myself then, if I couldn't do it when it was indeed normal I shouldn't be doing it or I'd better myself until I could do it normally (provided it's not actually hard or nigh-impossible to kill, like Rag/C'thun in Vanilla). Handicapping anything isn't personal progression really, unless you'd acknowledge that Blizzard was sort of saying "You suck, here's a 20% nerf so you can finally kill something!" It sort of defeats personal progression, or sets those who believe this is in fact personal progression into the sense of sort of not being good at the game.

If it were about personal progression, we'd see people still running normals and not jumping into heroics by cheating the item level system, especially when they've never ran the place on normal or have no knowledge whatsoever about a fight. This happens right now. Personal progression would be bettering oneself which most people do not take the time to do right now, I don't think this will change in the future. But that isn't the case.

It'd make me feel like I was being babied or patronized. I don't mind the nerf either, though a 20% blanket one still is a big nerf imo.

EDIT: Quoted this, meant to write it.
Edited by Samanosuke on 5/24/2011 3:35 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Rogue
13440
I signed on just to say this:

I don't care, I'll be doing Firelands, which will be tuned exactly the same as the current tier. This change might even be good for me; I've been hoping that they'd push the shoulder and head tier pieces to Valor points for the sake of my alts looking pretty, but this change looks like it'll be more than enough to get them the hard(or not quite so) way.
85 Troll Druid
6920
We're upon 6 months since release. My friendlist is almost always grey now. My other character's guilds are all but empty (myself and another guy might log in.) It's no longer player friendly, but class specific, also melee is less desired then ever. If you don't have perfect latency you get screwed, and wipe the raid which I'm truly SICK of.

My server is supposed to be central, yet it's hosted in Seattle, that is NOT central.

The talk about giving people in a lower tuned raid lesser gear is absolutely stupid too. Do you people have any clue just how STUPID that is? Normal mode is normal, if they chose to change it, they will do so and along with it, goes the loot tables it already has. You idiots got your heroic modes and higher ilvls and can bugger off and be HAPPY with what you get for a change.
90 Troll Druid
4855
05/24/2011 12:18 PMPosted by Paulin
Actually what bothers me about cataclysm, is the fact that you have to play how blizzard want you to play, why dont let you pick your own rotation, instead of " you must open with @spell, then use @spell1, and once you got X stacks of @spell, use @spell3", I mean the game is not free to play in that scenario, not mentioning you HAVE TO go to the bottom of one talent tree before using the other two you have. It have become very restricted in that way. Why dont you just gives us the tools, and let us learn how to use them. Or am I playing here a different game?


i can't argue with you about the talent trees, i used to love my disc/holy priest hybrid spec and di quite well with it, however, you do not have to play how blizzard wants you to play. why even make that statement? there has and always will be an optimal spec and rotation to get the most out of your chosen class. should they make all abilities equal so you can do any thing you want to feel unique? i don't get it. no matter what happens, someone will find the optimal order to cast things in to get the most damage, the most heals and the most threat.

you can choose not to play that way all you want, and you'll get by because you'll still put out some decent numbers with your own rotation, but you'll never compete for the top of the charts.

tl;dr: you can play your own way, go right ahead, but there will always be an optimal way to play that will be the best for your class and spec.
85 Night Elf Druid
6920
Actually what would happen is that people wouldn't wait to get the rest of the guild geared up, they'd get their gear, apply for a guild above them in level and jump ship. I'm sure there were exceptions but generally that's what happened.

In any case, I don't think a structured progression is a BAD idea, you just have to have good ideas to keep ti together. For example, like increasing the amount of loot drops in older raids in order to speed up gearing.

90 Gnome Death Knight
13415
Blizzard should create a forum accessible only to those who have unsubscribed in the previous 12 months and who remain unsubscribed. Would be an interesting collection of viewpoints.
85 Night Elf Druid
6920
05/24/2011 03:27 PMPosted by Samanosuke
If your post was in fact the case then wouldn't "personal progession" be about doing it at its intended level? Wouldn't a 20% nerf diminish that sense of "personal progression"?


If damage were measured in terms of percentage of a bosses health, then yeah, it would. But people like seeing bigger numbers. Lowering the bosses health doesn't do anything for that personal progression.

To me at least it's all about group progression, not personal, so I don't feel that way. But then again, I'm a healer. Quite a few DPS I've run across DO feel that way however.
85 Goblin Rogue
7245
Actually what would happen is that people wouldn't wait to get the rest of the guild geared up, they'd get their gear, apply for a guild above them in level and jump ship. I'm sure there were exceptions but generally that's what happened.

In any case, I don't think a structured progression is a BAD idea, you just have to have good ideas to keep ti together. For example, like increasing the amount of loot drops in older raids in order to speed up gearing.


I'd actually like this instead of the 20% nerf. Progression is progression, and if it's gear they want then so be it. Just don't trivialize the game to obtain it, let's at least keep epic gear feeling epic and not like blues, this was a mistake in Wrath xD
85 Troll Druid
6920
If you want hard raid content the Firelands is there for you.

What we are seeing is just obsolete content getting nerfed to people can get geared easier for Firelands.


no suprises at your boss kills


Surprise! Most people's loyalties to their FRIENDS is greater then the self gain greed most 'hardcores' have, where they trade their friendships and even relationships with partners for personal gain in a fake fictional world.

Blizzard stressed, bring your friends, not the class. We see how well that works out now.
We also see just how much their undertuned tanks and healers struggle to the point nobody wants to really tank or heal and them offering 'goodie bags' hasn't done squat save keep them in the first tier of heroics because they're easier then the second tier.

Not everyone is able to get Carried to boss kills neither... Jus sayin.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
If you want hard raid content the Firelands is there for you.

What we are seeing is just obsolete content getting nerfed to people can get geared easier for Firelands.


Then cry for Firelands nerfs due to being bad.

If you can't down current content, then you don't deserve to see current content or have current gear.
90 Orc Death Knight
Pie
4620
05/24/2011 11:53 AMPosted by Evirus
You KNOW it's going to happen though.

This has nothing to do with T11 raid nerfs though. This would happen to some extent regardless of the accessibility of BWD, BoT and TotFW. What these nerfs do allow for is non progression oriented guilds to get into T11 raids and experience the content when they may not otherwise be able to until even they didn't care anymore.

These changes encourage new raid groups to go through earlier content (T11 in this case) as a stepping stone to current content (Firelands) rather than skipping all prior raids, getting geared through heroic dungeons and jumping into whatever happens to be the latest raid tier at the time. That model (Wrath) was not only boring, but it wasted content (who ran Ulduar other than for fun or achievements after ToC came out? This is indeed a much better solution than simply buffing the raid members 30% while in the instance.
85 Goblin Rogue
7245
05/24/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Karmaze
If your post was in fact the case then wouldn't "personal progession" be about doing it at its intended level? Wouldn't a 20% nerf diminish that sense of "personal progression"?


If damage were measured in terms of percentage of a bosses health, then yeah, it would. But people like seeing bigger numbers. Lowering the bosses health doesn't do anything for that personal progression.

To me at least it's all about group progression, not personal, so I don't feel that way. But then again, I'm a healer. Quite a few DPS I've run across DO feel that way however.


You're a healer though :D When I was a healer I sought passion in seeing myself keep up those DPS/Tanks to kill the boss, that in a sense was personal progression yet group progression at the same time.

However after reading many of the posts by other players here, you and I are an exception.
85 Worgen Druid
4380
Plenty of people like the challenge, but not everyone has the ability or maybe even desire to be in a guild capable of tackling it right from the get-go.

It's always been our intent to offer new raid tiers in Cataclysm that are difficult to provide challenge to the raiding guilds, and then gradually allow older content to self-nerf as people gear up through VP, and then eventual literal nerfs to the content. That's something we've been communicating for some time.

Burning Crusade swung the pendulum one way, and Wrath of the Lich King swung it back too far the other. We're attempting to find that middle ground where there's still something brutally difficult for the cutting edge, but content gradually comes down until it's extremely accessible (ie PUGable) either simply through gear proliferation, or literal content difficulty nerfs.

There's always going to be two sides of the fence, some people want things more accessible for them and that's cool, we want it to be too, and some people think it should be difficult and always be that way because that's the way they had to do it. The fact of the matter is that as an MMO the end-game bar is constantly being raised, and progression content is in general not a place where we're going to purposefully gate prestige through difficulty. There are some exceptions of course, hard modes and unlockable bosses are purposefully there to be more difficult challenges, but as a whole our intent is to create a constantly moving ramp upward for Normal difficulty raids. That has to mean that the Normal raid content that was the hardest will one day be the easiest.

You will very likely see this same happen for Firelands when the raid tier above it is released.


20% is way too much, it will be Wotlk all over again. People will be getting new gear from Firelands dailies and current VP down to JP. Talk about overkill. I see the coin counters got in your ear
85 Goblin Rogue
7245



no suprises at your boss kills


Surprise! Most people's loyalties to their FRIENDS is greater then the self gain greed most 'hardcores' have, where they trade their friendships and even relationships with partners for personal gain in a fake fictional world.

Blizzard stressed, bring your friends, not the class. We see how well that works out now.
We also see just how much their undertuned tanks and healers struggle to the point nobody wants to really tank or heal and them offering 'goodie bags' hasn't done squat save keep them in the first tier of heroics because they're easier then the second tier.

Not everyone is able to get Carried to boss kills neither... Jus sayin.


Ugh, please do not use the word "hardcore". I'm not hardcore and I've managed to get 10/13 HM (suprisingly our guild is #1 on the server too) Also, if your friends/family/loved ones are a bigger priority than playing the game for it's intended purpose, then tend to them and play the game later, or not at all if it doesn't suit your schedule or conflicts with the varying priorities you have. That isn't an excuse, I raid with my friends and we've gotten far.
Edited by Samanosuke on 5/24/2011 3:47 PM PDT
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