Mild, Medium, Spicy, Hot.

62 Night Elf Druid
800
On these forums more often than not it's the squeaky wheel that is not only given the grease, but given credence as well....from both sides of the pew.


Your mixer just crit multiple metaphors for 9001.
They die.
Reply Quote
85 Goblin Mage
12745
05/24/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
You mean the tier with only 7 bosses? The one with the encounter journal that everyone thinks gives too much information and will trivialize learning the fights? That tier?


Having information on boss abilities within the game will make fights easier than alt+tabbing to a website to read literal strategies, group placements, phase descriptions, if not ways to cheese the encounter? Pardon my sarcasm, but that's amazing! And logical.

If you're cutting edge you've already seen the bosses on the PTR, you've already read the strategies before the patch is anywhere near release. What amounts to ability tooltips is not going to tell you how to beat a boss, or make you or your raid competent enough to do so.

It's a cool feature to put drop tables within the default UI, let people get some info on the bosses, and hopefully keep them from having to tab out of the game just to get (usually incorrect) boss ability info from the internets.


Good call.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6225
Wait.

Does this mean we're going back to the vanilla model of having to gear up through every tier in order? That is to say, if I level a new toon to 85 after 4.2, will I not be able to participate in Firelands based on Justice Point / dungeon gear alone? Because that seriously sucked in vanilla.
Reply Quote
100 Human Warrior
18570
05/24/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
You mean the tier with only 7 bosses? The one with the encounter journal that everyone thinks gives too much information and will trivialize learning the fights? That tier?


Having information on boss abilities within the game will make fights easier than alt+tabbing to a website to read literal strategies, group placements, phase descriptions, if not ways to cheese the encounter? Pardon my sarcasm, but that's amazing! And logical.

If you're cutting edge you've already seen the bosses on the PTR, you've already read the strategies before the patch is anywhere near release. What amounts to ability tooltips is not going to tell you how to beat a boss, or make you or your raid competent enough to do so.


What a truly narrow perspective. The devil is in the details.

First of all, you initially overstepped in terms of providing tooltip data vs. actually suggesting how to approach an encounter; this is something that Blue has already commented on and promised to be mindful of in the future.

Second, if the end-goal is to make raiding more accessible to the masses (a good goal), then there is no reason whatsoever to extend heroic-version details to the DJ (i.e. that market is already hooked and raiding). I am all for providing more handholding for normal modes and would like to see more guilds successfully raiding in general, as it's healthier for the game, but heroic content should require effort (both execution and preparation) commensurate with the term.

Third, part of the challenge of slogging through progression is testing hypotheses and experimenting with approaches that suit your guild. Having an official, Blizzard-stamped guide through encounters (again, I only care about heroic) is a FAR CRY from deciphering the crap that is generally available on the internet or trying to figure out how a guild is doing something via a video laden with horrifying techno-beats. Night and day, friend.

As with most things, this will come down to implementation. My personal opinion is that heroic mode portions of the DJ should offer only tooltip data that already exists elsewhere (i.e. data mining) with no elaboration whatsoever in terms of how that might impact the encounter.
Reply Quote
1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
"If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing"

Do you mean if we have completed Normal BD/BoT or Heroic BD/BoT ??
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
21410
I haven't posted in the forums in awhile, but I felt it was my duty to log on and say I support the idea of a dungeon journal.

It follows logically when just about every single raiding group uses DBM, tests the PTR and goes to external websites like Wowhead for this information already.
Reply Quote
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.


I think one of the best solutions to this is (was) to implement a simplistic raid or two that dropped blues (or epics) that were higher than heroics, but lower than 359s (I'm thinking ZG and AQ20 in classic, or Khara in BC, but on appropriate scales). Plus, this would be a good way to re-introduce class-specific dungeon sets, a way to give your class a raid appropriate boost toward Tier gear without replacing raid epics.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Death Knight
7945
I may have missed this, as I have not read the entire thread. However my question is this:

Will the helm/shoulder tokens become available at the vendors for T11 come 4.2? Or will they continue to only be available via Nef/Cho'gall respectively?

Personally I'm all about leaving them as they are, but just curious...
Reply Quote
1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I read they are staying on Chogall and Nef
Reply Quote
1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
"If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing"

Do you mean if we have completed Normal BD/BoT or Heroic BD/BoT ??
Reply Quote
96 Dwarf Warrior
9910
Too little, too late.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Mage
13125
05/24/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
If you're cutting edge you've already seen the bosses on the PTR, you've already read the strategies before the patch is anywhere near release. What amounts to ability tooltips is not going to tell you how to beat a boss,


I could formulate a pretty legitimate ragnaros heroic strategy right now, and noones seen a single heroic encounter or even normal ragnaros on the ptr. It wouldn't be perfect of course, maybe I might not know the exact amount of healers vs dps required for the fight but for the most part, it's all written down in the dungeon journal. Can you actually deny that?

05/24/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
or make you or your raid competent enough to do so.


True, but it's sad that this is basically all there is left to progression for firelands.
Reply Quote
24 Worgen Rogue
12410
And does that mean that if it's supposed to be a stair step that we're still going to be encouraged to do the old "Stairs" beyond if we're helping with the legendary chain?


If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing.

The content has been out quite a while, there's no reason to make people wait and spend even more time running dungeons to grab the new gear before they can start on raid content they haven't seen yet.


This makes no sense. You first claim we should be able to "see most or any of BWD/BOT as soon as 4.2 comes out", yet then say "no reason to make people wait and spend even more time running dungeons... before they start on new content".

So is it "finish old content and progress correctly through the game", or "once 4.2 hits we are giving bad players cheat codes to end game progression and they should be able to step into FL raid regardless of gear/expereince from BWD/BOT"?
Edited by Splurger on 5/27/2011 7:45 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Undead Death Knight
11560
05/24/2011 05:01 PMPosted by Mogrigg
Casual does not mean bad by any means. There are quite good players out there who are casual. The true difference: casuals schedule the game around their life, hardcores schedule their life around the game.


QFT. Best comparison I've ever read on these forums.
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Warrior
5200
05/24/2011 06:01 PMPosted by Bashiok
Normals will drop JP, Heroics will drop Valor.


So what happens to new raiders who haven't been farming T11 content for 6 months? They get to go farm ZG and ZA for 980 valor a week for 3 of their 5 tier pieces.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
8120
Bad analogy is bad?

Seriously, eating something spicy takes one person, you. Mild through Hot cost the same and take the same amount of time to consume.

Play styles are different. Take anywhere from 5-25 people. They cost different amounts in terms of what gear you need to do them, and high level raids take a lot more consecutive time than 5 man pugs.
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Warrior
1310
05/24/2011 05:53 PMPosted by Bashiok
And does that mean that if it's supposed to be a stair step that we're still going to be encouraged to do the old "Stairs" beyond if we're helping with the legendary chain?


If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing.

The content has been out quite a while, there's no reason to make people wait and spend even more time running dungeons to grab the new gear before they can start on raid content they haven't seen yet.


This doesn't make sense - wouldn't the "people waiting" be doing raid content they haven't seen yet?

Since, you know, they haven't seen it since they've not progressed through it?

I don't care because that content is literally going on 6 months old now, but handing someone gear that someone else worked for in the name of "everyone gets to do the newest content without waiting" basically annoys people who've REALLY been waiting for the new content.

I guess if you like tweaked encounters and regrinding gear that says "heroic" above it, you'll love wow progression. Buuuuuuuuuuuuut you're really undermining the sense of accomplishment when you minimize dungeon progression to "oh, i beat that pre nerf-1 but post nerf-2 back when it was hardcore but not as hardcore as the hardest core."

Zzz.
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Warrior
1310
To elucidate further, back in the bad/good old days of EQ a new expansion could release but our guild hadn't progressed through to it yet.

The guilds that monopolized endgame content would all be shuttled into the expansion like cattle and then we were free to finally do the previous expansion's endgame, because we were not geared up in the new expansion.

It was annoying when someone would get a trash drop from the new place that rivaled the end game items from the previous place.

We did not miss/care about the new dungeon because we weren't progressed through to it.

WoW's system seems to want to be able to post blogs about the cool new dungeon that EVERYONE MUST DO, rather than highlight the fact that the game is about linear accomplishment. You're slowly removing any sense of linear accomplishment by increasing the mudflation reset button with each and every content deployment.

This has led more development time towards trying to placate the new/ignorant integrating with the wise/jaded. All you see nowadays are posts regarding LFD sucking, nerfs sucking, explaining encounters before they're even released sucking, requiring deadly boss mods, not requiring deadly boss mods, etc.

You have a PVP model that requires PVE, you have an arena model that requires battleground grinding.

All of these systems have one thing in common: favoring a new player over an old player. The one bone we're thrown is heirloom gear, but that's really crafty in that it's really to fill out the 1-84 grind with more than really new players. Those really new players basically skip through the content with the rate of levelling, RAF, guild bonuses, whatever and yet we find more and more of the game catering to them.


Really the bottomline is one one hand, you don't release enough content fast enough to warrant obsoleting previous dungeons... on the other, gear progression "sucks" to the new/casuals. It seems very obvious that minimizing gear progression minimizes the drive to go through it at all, since you could quit due to boredom in, say, February but come back whenever "new shiny" is released and do the content.

Why have gear at all, then?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]