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90 Human Death Knight
12455
05/24/2011 06:01 PMPosted by Bashiok
Of course, keep in mind, the nerfs that were announced only apply to Normal.

I think this is great.

Honestly, I'm pretty happy about how the whole thing plays out. I'm moving on to Firelands, but it will be a relief to have a raid instance I can enjoy with folks who maybe don't want to match the level of effort needed for "current content."

I'm also quite happy to see that the hard modes are being left untouched.

All in all, this model (nerfing the old tier alongside the release of the new one) is something I could live with for a long time. Certainly far better than the 'gradually nerf while the content is still current" method.

Nice work!

Say . . . just so I have a sense of progression . . . mind letting us know what comes after Firelands? /wink
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100 Night Elf Druid
18940
05/24/2011 06:27 PMPosted by Sidelyn
Why do hardmodes exist anymore if the new direction is to have a raid come out hard then be nerfed down when the next tier comes out? The whole point of implementing hardmodes was to give bad players and good players challenges fit for them, if you have to nerf the normal mode so bad players can see the instance haven't you failed to balance the instance in the first place? if you're not going to let bad players see the content before the next tier comes out why not just make the instance have one hard difficulty and release more bosses or more instances?


How did they fail? 10 mans at the moment are a work in progress since it's hard to tune them, but you can't fix bad players - only they can. Hell they're bad for a reason.

If they make the content too easy you'll see what happened with TOC, TOCG was TOC on steroids since the difficulty went up tremendously.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4480
05/24/2011 06:01 PMPosted by Bashiok
So to be more direct: Will Bot/BWD still be dropping Valor Points?


Normals will drop JP, Heroics will drop Valor.

Of course, keep in mind, the nerfs that were announced only apply to Normal.


I'm wondering a few things with this change?

- What is the expected progression once 4.2 hits?
Normal Dungeons > Heroic Dungeons > ZA/ZG > Bot/BWD Normal > Bot/BWD Heroic > Firelands Normal > Firelands Heroic? Is BOT/BWD heroic gear required to move into Firelands normal?

- Are you increasing the Valor cap? With 4 instances dropping valor we are going to cap quickly.
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82 Blood Elf Paladin
5345
05/24/2011 06:27 PMPosted by Sidelyn
Why do hardmodes exist anymore if the new direction is to have a raid come out hard then be nerfed down when the next tier comes out? The whole point of implementing hardmodes was to give bad players and good players challenges fit for them, if you have to nerf the normal mode so bad players can see the instance haven't you failed to balance the instance in the first place? if you're not going to let bad players see the content before the next tier comes out why not just make the instance have one hard difficulty and release more bosses or more instances?


There's a reason most games aren't limited to "easy" and "insane" modes. There's usually a "normal" mode as well.

The heroic content is strictly for the cutting edge and the people immediately behind them. The normal content is for those who enjoy raid progression, but aren't particularly hardcore. The latter aren't necessarily going to be satisfied if the only content really accessible to them is dramatically undertuned, and Naxxramas was a great example of that.

On a completely different note, here's a random idea. If WoW must have a prominent "grind for points" component, have 3 tiers, not 2: one for heroic dungeons, one for normal raids, and one for heroic raids. The reward system needs to be more biased in favor of doing actual raid content. By the time you can get significantly geared through heroics dungeons, it'll actually be justified, because catching up will be much tougher - but you'll still be much better off if you incorporate raid content into your mix as well.
Edited by Zambos on 5/24/2011 6:39 PM PDT
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85 Undead Warlock
4155

No...I read your post. You are putting forward the misconception the Casual = Bad and that Hardcore = Good. No matter you intentions, you are wrong on this point.


OP, like it or not. Your second paragraph starts off with this assertion. If you did not intend to make that assertion, you really should learn about the communication model.


i disagree completely. in fact ill go on record as being a casual. i raid a whopping 6 hours a week on this toon and the guild im in is 1/13hm. thats nothing to write home about if you're a hardcore player, and nothing to sneeze at if you area casual folk. i dont think im "bad" nor do i think im "super-leet-pro".

in YOUR opinion my second paragraph makes that assertion, but only if you are "touchy" about the subject. if you read the post entire with an unbiased viewpoint, you would see that both the casual and the hardcore are given a fair share of of my disdain.

if you did not intend to "read into what you wanted", then maybe you should learn about reading comprehension, and forming an unbiased opinion;) (see what i did there?). just because i think both of the extremes complain WAY to much doesnt mean i favor one or the other side of the argument. i see valid points from both perspectives, but feel that for the most part, the QQ'ing that goes on here is little more than a cheap way to get attention, rather than address any real issues.
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85 Human Warrior
8645
05/24/2011 06:36 PMPosted by Cellice


Normals will drop JP, Heroics will drop Valor.

Of course, keep in mind, the nerfs that were announced only apply to Normal.


I'm wondering a few things with this change?

- What is the expected progression once 4.2 hits?
Normal Dungeons > Heroic Dungeons > ZA/ZG > Bot/BWD Normal > Bot/BWD Heroic > Firelands Normal > Firelands Heroic? Is BOT/BWD heroic gear required to move into Firelands normal?

- Are you increasing the Valor cap? With 4 instances dropping valor we are going to cap quickly.


As he said that you wouldn't be required to farm gear for your guild from BWD/BOT, i would imagine it will be entirely skippable.
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85 Gnome Priest
5740

- Are you increasing the Valor cap? With 4 instances dropping valor we are going to cap quickly.


You almost cap from heroics alone. I think the intent is that capping is pretty easy. Letting you cap from more sources gives you some flexibility in terms of how you choose to cap.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
11825
05/24/2011 06:36 PMPosted by Cellice


Normals will drop JP, Heroics will drop Valor.

Of course, keep in mind, the nerfs that were announced only apply to Normal.


I'm wondering a few things with this change?

- What is the expected progression once 4.2 hits?
Normal Dungeons > Heroic Dungeons > ZA/ZG > Bot/BWD Normal > Bot/BWD Heroic > Firelands Normal > Firelands Heroic? Is BOT/BWD heroic gear required to move into Firelands normal?

- Are you increasing the Valor cap? With 4 instances dropping valor we are going to cap quickly.


Personally, I really hope at least normal BoT/BWD are still part of the standard progression path, otherwise all of the bads that want current content nerfed will be back here in 2 days wanting T12 content nerfed.
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85 Dwarf Priest
10150
05/24/2011 06:19 PMPosted by Supernerd
With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet.


You mean the tier with only 7 bosses? The one with the encounter journal that everyone thinks gives too much information and will trivialize learning the fights? That tier?


Do you think the journal will change that much? People still after explaining fights in detail do not pay attention and die to the same mechanics over and over, not like it will help at all.

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100 Troll Mage
18355
05/24/2011 05:53 PMPosted by Bashiok
And does that mean that if it's supposed to be a stair step that we're still going to be encouraged to do the old "Stairs" beyond if we're helping with the legendary chain?


If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing.

The content has been out quite a while, there's no reason to make people wait and spend even more time running dungeons to grab the new gear before they can start on raid content they haven't seen yet.


I may be missing something and be wrong but wasn't TBC the expansion that had the biggest subscription gain that not only came but stayed? Why would you stray so far from that model? Didn't wrath only raise the numbers by fractions compared to the last one? I am seriously confused with the seeming hate for raiding stairs.

People need stairs so they can work out those raider legs, do harder content and feel more accomplished. It just seems to me that everyone would be much happier. Undead tinted glasses I suppose.
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85 Worgen Druid
11665
05/24/2011 05:53 PMPosted by Bashiok
And does that mean that if it's supposed to be a stair step that we're still going to be encouraged to do the old "Stairs" beyond if we're helping with the legendary chain?


If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing.

The content has been out quite a while, there's no reason to make people wait and spend even more time running dungeons to grab the new gear before they can start on raid content they haven't seen yet.


What about when the next tier comes out? Will you still be encouraging a stair stepping system, where a new guild will be encouraged to do BWD/BOT/TotFW and the Firelands and then the next raid? Or will Firelands then become the JP loot and the t11 raids become lost to time :(
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43 Night Elf Hunter
11020
05/24/2011 05:33 PMPosted by Bashiok
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier.


This didn't appear to be Blizzard's stance a few months ago?

What has changed to bring on this new mindset? (other than 600k subscriptions)
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
8960
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.


I really hate to be the guy that reads into the blue post like it's some kind of coded text...but

Does this mean the devs aren't happy with the challenge Cataclysm presented us out of the gate? I felt like the intro of this expansion was asking too much too quickly and, personally, it has hurt my enjoyment of the game.

Since it seems like you guys will be taking the nerf bat to content that you want to be "pug friendly", will we ever see the current tier receive (over-time) nerfs on a boss to boss basis? Or perhaps the ICC buff brought back scaling after several weeks?
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100 Orc Death Knight
Pie
5380
05/24/2011 05:01 PMPosted by Mogrigg
hardcores schedule their life around the game.

So many people assume this, but mostly it is not at all accurate. Maybe the top 0.5% of guilds, those that are contenders for world first kills and achievements do prioritize those achievements higher in their life than most, but those individuals are not what this discussion is about. They exist in their own very small tier of spiciness.

The guild that got server first Heroic kills on my server (a slightly above average progression realm) raid roughly 10-11 hours per week. That's about average as far as I'm aware. They don't need more time, they can execute the strategies effectively, moreso than your average raid groups.

The main difference between most "hardcore" raid groups and "casual" raid groups is their commitment to getting the job done in a timely manner. A "hardcore" guild is more likely to have steeper requirements of their members with regards to performance and participation than will a casual guild. There's nothing wrong with requiring members to achieve certain benchmark dps numbers, gear requirements, even connection stability, etc.

Another big difference is simply the content that they tackle. Because "hardcore" raid guilds rely more on their own skill and ability to learn, adapt and execute strategies than they do on their gear level, they are willing to tackle harder content (heroic raiding) earlier than are "casual" groups. If you look at some armories of players in these hardcore guilds you'll notice 2-3 normal mode kills for most raid bosses and 15+ heroic kills. They don't waste much time on normal modes before moving on to what they're really interested in. Those casual guilds that have bothered at all with heroic content will likely display inverse numbers of kills.

Neither is good or bad. Neither is better or worse. They are different. One is better suited to one type or another and that person who feels himself to be "hardcore" may feel frustrated by a more casual raid group, but the excuse of not having the time to dedicate to the game is invalid.

Yes there are people who do spend more time in game than they do at work (if they even work at all), but they are the exception, even among the top 10% of progression guilds.
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85 Undead Warlock
4155
You know the funny thing?


Restaurants will gladly remove the spice from a dish if it means the customer buys it and is happy with the product. So, your analogy works both ways.


my analogy wasnt ment to work for any particular "way", but to encompass everyone, and to point out that everyone has proper representation. so it already works "both ways".

to further that analogy, and why your example is a bad thing, if you go to some restaurants, they dont offer anything that is legitimately "hot" anymore, because theres always some jerk that orders the hot plate, only to have it sent back. the cook grows tired of these people and eventually pulls back on the spices assuming that there is no market for the dishes that were intended to be hot. at some point even if you walk into the place demanding hot food, you only get spicy at best, because the cook just assumes (through experience) that you dont really want hot, and youre just gonna send it back if he makes it thus.

this happens irl all the time, if i go to indian food joints, i have to beg the cook to make it "indian hot". i have to explain ti to them that i want to be crying from the spiciness, and ill send it back otherwise. when the food comes to me they stand at the kitchen door to see if the silly american really knows what he wants and raise their eyebrows to see how happy i am when they make it properly.

the hassle i have to go through to get food made the way i want because some jerk wants the entire menu made bland enough for his liking is beyond annoying. there should be room enough on the menu for everyone, and in a game like this it is simply not feasible to have some Dev tune each instance to everyones individual ability.

what they can do, (and in my opinion have done quite well) is create general difficulties and content to match it. the content is there, the balance is there, and in my opinion, only those that are on the bubble of both extremes to the majority of the complaining.
Edited by Hallowman on 5/24/2011 6:51 PM PDT
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Community Manager
05/24/2011 06:19 PMPosted by Supernerd
You mean the tier with only 7 bosses? The one with the encounter journal that everyone thinks gives too much information and will trivialize learning the fights? That tier?


Having information on boss abilities within the game will make fights easier than alt+tabbing to a website to read literal strategies, group placements, phase descriptions, if not ways to cheese the encounter? Pardon my sarcasm, but that's amazing! And logical.

If you're cutting edge you've already seen the bosses on the PTR, you've already read the strategies before the patch is anywhere near release. What amounts to ability tooltips is not going to tell you how to beat a boss, or make you or your raid competent enough to do so.

It's a cool feature to put drop tables within the default UI, let people get some info on the bosses, and hopefully keep them from having to tab out of the game just to get (usually incorrect) boss ability info from the internets.
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100 Undead Warrior
6735
05/24/2011 06:01 PMPosted by Bashiok
Of course, keep in mind, the nerfs that were announced only apply to Normal.


As long as you don't mess with heroic raid tier I can get behind that.
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15 Goblin Warrior
100
Solaru always nails it. You are officially my favorite poster.
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