Mild, Medium, Spicy, Hot.

24 Night Elf Priest
7575
I don't like the idea of dumbing down the content as we go along. It almost says to me "Why do the stuff when it first comes out? Just wait until it's nerfed to make it all easier." That's sort of a dangerous precedent to be setting. If you ask me, that is. Which no one did.

You're not good enough to beat the instance when we first made it? We'll reduce the difficulty.

You're kid is not smart enough to pass the test? We'll just reduce the passing grade.

It seems a stretch but that is how I see it. Still, I'm not sure I'm qualified to even be talking about this since I've yet to gear any characters up enough to run these dungeons that are getting nerfed.
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85 Undead Warlock
4155
The menue for casual players needs to expand drastically to remain viable ingame & enjoyable.
I want to do more than a few Grindy dailies .


you may be right, but with each patch the menu for casuals will grow. casuals will have access to gear that will allow them to see more and more content, and thats a great thing.....aint it?
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85 Troll Priest
5035
05/24/2011 06:42 PMPosted by Igornia


If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing.

The content has been out quite a while, there's no reason to make people wait and spend even more time running dungeons to grab the new gear before they can start on raid content they haven't seen yet.


I may be missing something and be wrong but wasn't TBC the expansion that had the biggest subscription gain that not only came but stayed? Why would you stray so far from that model? Didn't wrath only raise the numbers by fractions compared to the last one? I am seriously confused with the seeming hate for raiding stairs.

People need stairs so they can work out those raider legs, do harder content and feel more accomplished. It just seems to me that everyone would be much happier. Undead tinted glasses I suppose.


Indeed. Bring back the more BC oriented mentality you promised to have Cata take, rather than reverting to the Wrath mentality at the first sign of people whining.
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85 Undead Warlock
4155
You're not good enough to beat the instance when we first made it? We'll reduce the difficulty.

You're kid is not smart enough to pass the test? We'll just reduce the passing grade.


when people start using the terms "good enough" or "smart enoguh" or whatever in this debate, they too miss the point.

all that really matters in this game is that there is content that brings a variety of challenge to every player. whats more is that people realize that the natural progression of any ex pack is going to provide more variety for the hardcores at the beginning of the ex pack, and more variety for casuals towards the end of the ex pack.

sadly, the crybabies on both sides cant just shut up and wait their turn.
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85 Undead Warlock
4155
I'd also like to address the "BC was the bomb yo" rose colored sunglasses.

had BC had 4 tiers of raiding content, BC heroic would have become a aoe fest faceroll JUST like wrath. exactly like wrath. exactly positively.

BC also got its fair share of nerfs, and im not just talkin about the pre wrath one. going into SSC or TK in the fictional fourth tier would have been a complete joke, and something that even the most casual person would have been able to pug. i think people lose sight of that 4 tiers fact when comparing wrath to classic (3 tiers) and BC (3 tiers). if cata goes for 4 tiers of content you can bet your bottom dollar there will be revisionists on the matter of cata difficulty......people already as is forget and deny that loken was ever a challenge to anyone......despite the numbers that prove otherwise.
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90 Troll Warrior
13875
I was under the impression raiding was about telling the story and pacing the expansion?

Having multiple tiers spreads out the playerbase. Having multiple difficulties is a far better option (which is why ICC was so powerful). Give the "hardcore" players the option to unnerf content via clicking off the buff.... but how many people would actually do this?
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85 Undead Warlock
4155
its almost as if you typed that out first, cut/pasted in any old random thread.

pro!

not you therealgor, the guy above ya.
Edited by Hallowman on 5/24/2011 7:42 PM PDT
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85 Undead Warlock
4155
I was under the impression raiding was about telling the story and pacing the expansion?

Having multiple tiers spreads out the playerbase. Having multiple difficulties is a far better option (which is why ICC was so powerful). Give the "hardcore" players the option to unnerf content via clicking off the buff.... but how many people would actually do this?


so....let me see if im reading this right. are you suggesting one tier per ex pack? each dungeon released having the same difficulty? but having the option to select different levels of difficulty for each raid/dungeon?

id do it, but i know for a fact im in the minority. a lot of folks play for the shiny epics, and if you dont supply them with new and improved shiny epics in a timely manner, they get bored and go elsewhere.

that aint me mind you, but thats most of the people i know that play this game.
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85 Worgen Rogue
9055
05/24/2011 06:01 PMPosted by Bashiok
So to be more direct: Will Bot/BWD still be dropping Valor Points?


Normals will drop JP, Heroics will drop Valor.

Of course, keep in mind, the nerfs that were announced only apply to Normal.


Wait.

So those of us who are already sick and tired of this content are going to STILL be encouraged to minimize our time in Firelands early on because running the 4.0 heroic raids will work towards our VP cap (which is more important at the start of a raid tier than later)?

My concern is this: Heroic 4.0 raids already drop 372 gear. This is incentive enough to schedule them to the exclusion of harder Firelands bosses during our weekly limited raid time. Giving them a new reward (akin to upgrading Heroic Crusader's Coliseum to Emblems of Frost after releasing Icecrown Citadel) means that a guild will be forced to choose between progression on NEW content and rehashing OLD content that has been out for 6+ months in order to maximize the new gear they can earn.

Please consider removing the conflict between these two incentives.

The current content is old. We're tired of it. Do you expect to keep getting a full year out of a content patch like you did with ICC?
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05/24/2011 07:01 PMPosted by Yiffyton
Sorry, if you are a bad player, stop calling yourself "casual" so you do not have to look in the mirror. Casual v Hardcore just means the time you devote to the game. What you do with that time makes you good or bad.

My 9/12 boss kills wants to have a word with you.

For one, i'm not Disinterested, nor do i suck.

So your idiotic chart is invalid.

So you are a motivated player...You then are either a casual(motivated) that does not play often and downs bosses or you are a hardcore(motivated) player and downs bosses quickly. I guess the chart does work.

05/24/2011 07:11 PMPosted by Hallowman
and yet you failed to show me anything. instead you drew conclusions, and missed the point entire.

No...I hit the nail on the head. You called anyone that QQs about the difficulty of content "casual" in your example of people that complain on the forums. Sorry if you fail to see that.
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85 Undead Warlock
4155


and yet you failed to show me anything. instead you drew conclusions, and missed the point entire.

No...I hit the nail on the head. You called anyone that QQs about the difficulty of content "casual" in your example of people that complain on the forums. Sorry if you fail to see that.


eh, actually when i referred to people that QQ'd i was speaking about the hardcores and casuals. you missed that entire. not only did you miss the nail, you smacked yer thumb with the hammer, and yer still hitting that thumb over and over. its starting to look less like a thumb and more like roast beef at this point.

im sorry that you failed (and continue to) to see that.

and let me clarify even further (even though its a little crazy that i need to), im not really talking about the majority or hardcores or the majority of casuals. im talking about the small, vocal minority on BOTH sides that act like crabs in a pot. they view the game only through their own narrow narcissistic viewpoint, and proclaim that the game should be based around their own individual wants and desires. the reality of the games design is based somewhere between both extremes, and in my opinion, in a good place.

Edited by Hallowman on 5/24/2011 8:07 PM PDT
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85 Dwarf Shaman
7145
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.


so just wondering, but does this mean that each new patch (4.3+) or tier set, will have one easy full raid and one hard full raid? i could see that system working if this were true, however if it is to stay as now: last tier nerf, then new tier, wouldnt that just either degrade the difficulty gradually, or create larger jumps between steps?
or alternatively, is heroic mode raids to be truely entered into the equation, quite possibly complicating this further?
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05/24/2011 08:00 PMPosted by Hallowman
eh, actually when i referred to people that QQ'd i was speaking about the hardcores and casuals.

Right. Casuals do not QQ about the content...Bad players QQ about the content.

The thing is...Casuals do not say anything like...
05/24/2011 03:43 PMPosted by Hallowman
casuals cry that they cant have everything on the menu: "Please take the spice out of that dish!!!! It's toooooooooo HOT!!!!!!!"

That is the talk of players that suck, not casuals.

Edit:
as to your edit:
05/24/2011 08:00 PMPosted by Hallowman
im talking about the small, vocal minority on BOTH sides that act like crabs in a pot.

Those are not casuals.

If you had said in your OP something like "The entitled" vs "The elitists" that would have been great but you painted a broad brush by using casual and hardcore.
Edited by Solaru on 5/24/2011 8:12 PM PDT
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85 Undead Warlock
4155
05/24/2011 08:05 PMPosted by Jordoarf
if it is to stay as now: last tier nerf, then new tier, wouldnt that just either degrade the difficulty gradually, or create larger jumps between steps?


i can see it working perfectly as long as each tier is tuned so that we felt the same challenge that we did when entering this tier in 346's. so if im full 359, the next tier should be a challenge until im about hlaf way into that tier gear wise, and lets hope heroics are a pain in the butt all the way through that tier, possibly still difficult into the next tier. so long as there is always a "spicy" and "hot" on the menu, i think thats all that really matters, the "medium" and "mild" portion of the menu will grow naturally thought the ex pack.
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85 Undead Warlock
4155
i see what you did there solaru. semantics are fun when you are bored. consider me well trolled.
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05/24/2011 08:14 PMPosted by Hallowman
i see what you did there solaru. semantics are fun when you are bored. consider me well trolled.

Oh please...If I was trolling you, you would not be able to type straight. ;)...but I refrain from that behavior to keep my posting privileges in tact this time /halo.

Semantics had nothing to do with it. The true casuals are sick and tires of bad players calling themselves "casual" as an excuse for their suckieness and for the rest of the community lumping them in with these d-bags. As I said...semantics had nothing to do with it, just correctness. You were wrong in using the word casual in your example :)
Edited by Solaru on 5/24/2011 8:25 PM PDT
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85 Troll Druid
11130
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.


Will the T11 Helm/Shoulders still require a token in 4.2? Or will they cost JP?
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3 Blood Elf Hunter
0
Posted by Igornia


If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing.

The content has been out quite a while, there's no reason to make people wait and spend even more time running dungeons to grab the new gear before they can start on raid content they haven't seen yet.


I may be missing something and be wrong but wasn't TBC the expansion that had the biggest subscription gain that not only came but stayed? Why would you stray so far from that model? Didn't wrath only raise the numbers by fractions compared to the last one? I am seriously confused with the seeming hate for raiding stairs.

People need stairs so they can work out those raider legs, do harder content and feel more accomplished. It just seems to me that everyone would be much happier. Undead tinted glasses I suppose.


Indeed. Bring back the more BC oriented mentality you promised to have Cata take, rather than reverting to the Wrath mentality at the first sign of people whining.


What...you mean that expansion where only the top 3% of raiders could raid the current tier?

Yeah - that would work wonderfully with subs falling already.
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