Mild, Medium, Spicy, Hot.

86 Tauren Death Knight
8910
But, but, my second monitor, now she is useless :(

Having information on boss abilities within the game will make fights easier than alt+tabbing to a website to read literal strategies, group placements, phase descriptions, if not ways to cheese the encounter? Pardon my sarcasm, but that's amazing! And logical.

If you're cutting edge you've already seen the bosses on the PTR, you've already read the strategies before the patch is anywhere near release. What amounts to ability tooltips is not going to tell you how to beat a boss, or make you or your raid competent enough to do so.

It's a cool feature to put drop tables within the default UI, let people get some info on the bosses, and hopefully keep them from having to tab out of the game just to get (usually incorrect) boss ability info from the internets.
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100 Gnome Warlock
3515
05/24/2011 06:01 PMPosted by Bashiok
Of course, keep in mind, the nerfs that were announced only apply to Normal.


The problem is that you'll have to nerf the heroic modes as well otherwise the difficulty shift becomes "too jarring" from normal to heroic, which is one of the things you said you got wrong with the change from a few encounters within ICC's life span.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
05/24/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
You mean the tier with only 7 bosses? The one with the encounter journal that everyone thinks gives too much information and will trivialize learning the fights? That tier?


Having information on boss abilities within the game will make fights easier than alt+tabbing to a website to read literal strategies, group placements, phase descriptions, if not ways to cheese the encounter? Pardon my sarcasm, but that's amazing! And logical.

If you're cutting edge you've already seen the bosses on the PTR, you've already read the strategies before the patch is anywhere near release. What amounts to ability tooltips is not going to tell you how to beat a boss, or make you or your raid competent enough to do so.

It's a cool feature to put drop tables within the default UI, let people get some info on the bosses, and hopefully keep them from having to tab out of the game just to get (usually incorrect) boss ability info from the internets.


But alt-tabbing still hasn't been fixed, so I'd probably get d/c if I did that.....
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100 Orc Death Knight
15475
I used to think you were one of the bad guys, Bashiok.

Thanks for opening my eyes. You're sort of like the Ashbringer that Tirion carries around.
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85 Human Mage
5375
05/24/2011 11:26 PMPosted by Legendaîry
My money is on the second because Blizzard has been very forthcoming with their plans of late and this wasn't one of the plans laid out, indicated, implied or even hinted at. To add to this, I understand that not all plans are shared with us. But this is a rather significant "plan", much bigger than removal of keyrings or flying lion mount.


I think the plan was to release t11 and t12 together but t12 just wasnt ready. if both had been available at launch they could started t11 with the nerfs they are putting in now and the real progression would have been t12/ht12.

they pretty much had to block people in t11 as long as they did or else everyone and their alts would have a full t11 set by now.
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100 Human Paladin
13635
05/24/2011 06:01 PMPosted by Bashiok
So to be more direct: Will Bot/BWD still be dropping Valor Points?


Normals will drop JP, Heroics will drop Valor.

Of course, keep in mind, the nerfs that were announced only apply to Normal.


Now that is a brilliant compromise. I love it.
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85 Troll Priest
5035

What...you mean that expansion where only the top 3% of raiders could raid the current tier?

Yeah - that would work wonderfully with subs falling already.


No, I mean the expansion where things were challenging. The issues where people could not raid current tier were more than just the content being hard. Making the jump from being a 10 man guild to a 25 man guild in order to do T5 is the reason most people were stuck in T4. On top of that, attunements for the later tiers were extremely long and difficult to do because of that jump from T4 to T5. If T5 and T6 had been available to 10 man groups, and if there only needed to be one person in the raid with the attunement (a la Kara), there would have been much more than 3% raiding current content.

Indeed. Bring back the more BC oriented mentality you promised to have Cata take, rather than reverting to the Wrath mentality at the first sign of people whining.


Yeah lets bring back TBC mentality!

You're raiding top tier!
Oh someone just quit!
Your ONLY choice for recruitment is an equivilent guild or a lower guild. Because of how attunements work you have no real choice.

You're raiding mid tier.
Oh your guy just got poached!
Oh and another one did too!
Oh and now 3 more are leaving?
Raid's done. Call it and move up yourself.

TBC had more guild breakups, mergers and such than even Vanilla. And Vanilla was a mess.

It was the same problem, if you have to gear people through 3 tiers of raiding that limits who you can take as apps.

The new system elegantly fixes that.


Like I just finished saying, those issues were NOT caused by the difficulty of content, but rather the difficulty of being able to step into the places, IE, the jump from 10s to 25s being mandatory and the attunements being mandatory.


I've actually been meaning to throw a thread up about this for a while.

WHY do people put BC up on such a pedastel?

I remember BC. I remember content that was brokenly overtuned (Gruul, some heroics), bugged out the wazoo (TK, SSC), required silly comps to beat and was really quite bland to look at.

I remember having to grind apps up through previous content/attunements. I remember arduous, obnoxious mats grinds.

Most of all I remember things not being especially mechanically hard or complex. What made them hard was the sheer tuning of the numbers involved or brute reflex/latency checks (Archimonde, Reliquary) that would wipe your raid if failed.

BC has it's moment, but Wrath was to me the superior expansion.


Tuned to be hard is the point. Challenge > God Mode. Bugs and attunements/10->25 man jump aside, BC was much much much better than wrath.

Also, not really relavent, but BC was bland to look at? It was by far the best looking expansion. Everything in wrath looked the same, except for Sholozar, which did look good :).

EDIT: Merged the posts. Didn't mean to spam, I figured people would be responding while I was typing :)
Edited by Scubasage on 5/25/2011 5:27 AM PDT
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85 Undead Death Knight
8735
So...what is enjoying old raids and ignoring the current ones?
"Tangy"?

Also, you heard anything about tier 3 ever being rereleased Bash?
Because I'd pay the like 12 JPs or 100G or 200 honor or whatever to get a tier 3 set for looks.
Edited by Lapis on 5/25/2011 5:55 AM PDT
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
11335
Actually, there used to be Mild, Medium, Spicy, Hot.

Normal 10, Normal 25, HM 10, HM 25

Now there's just Medium and Hot.

It used to be that people could get a little bit of water to make the hot sauce tailored almost exactly to their level of taste (i.e. grab some 25 man gear from easier fights until you could do the harder 10 man stuff). That is gone now too.

The problem with T11 is that it needed to be more of an intro level raid. Kara was an intro raid. Naxx was an intro raid. 10 man normals acted as an intro level for each new tier in WotLK. Instead, in Cata Blizzard tried to make the heroics much harder and with a ridiculous number of mechanics as the teaching ground and it didn't really work. It just made a lot of people unhappy since they just wanted to finish the heroics and get their points.

The things that make Heroics hard--sheer output numbers, unreliable group mates--are not necessarily what makes raids hard. What made T11 especially hard was not getting out of stuff or targetting adds, but instead it was all the interrupts, the required use of cooldowns to reasonably survive, having to deal with latency and framerate issues associated with larger group play, the "one bad player can wipe us" mechanics, and so much burden being on the healers (as usual) but having the paradigm shifted so that healers did not have the tools or resources to carry weaker groups like they used to. To be fair, that healer problem was also what made heroics harder.

Blizzard needs to bring back to equivalent of WotLK 10 man normal raids.
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85 Troll Priest
5035
Instead, in Cata Blizzard tried to make the heroics much harder and with a ridiculous number of mechanics as the teaching ground and it didn't really work. It just made a lot of people unhappy since they just wanted to finish the heroics and get their points.

Blizzard needs to bring back to equivalent of WotLK 10 man normal raids.


Heroics weren't a ridiculous number of mechanics to learn as a teaching ground. Cho'gall has a ridiculous number of mechanics (not necessarily hard, it's just a really long list). Some heroics barely have more mechanics than Cho'gall on his own.

Another problem is the "they just wanted to finish and get their points". At the beginning of Cata, this SHOULDN'T have been the mentality of the players. Players who outgear heroics by a large portion (350+ ilvl doing regular 329 heroics) can have this mentality. The fresh 85 in greens and 333 blues should not.

If Cata had come after BC and Wrath had never existed, then those fresh 85s with greens and 333s would have the proper mentality, ie, this is a learning step necessary to get into raiding because it provides both gear with which to raid, and it provides encounters that serve as lessons to apply to raid encounters.
Edited by Scubasage on 5/25/2011 6:47 AM PDT
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100 Gnome Warlock
3515
I don't see a reason to ever nerf tier 11 hardmodes - ever. They get small nerfs each time gear is released, that's enough.


The same was true of T11, but they're still gutting the fights to the point of making critical mechanics completely ignorable.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
23270
05/24/2011 05:53 PMPosted by Bashiok
If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing.


I guess I'm a little confused. Isn't the point of the two-tier point system (justice/valor) specifically so you have to spend a few weeks running dungeons and grabbing gear to progress?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5925
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.


First paragraph is both a lucid and well presented explanation that should settle a great deal of confusion for many people. It is heartening to know that you all see that.

Second paragraph? Pfft. Don't sweat it. You will not come across as "the bad guys" to those that comprehend the first.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
23270
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.


Cata didn't have an intro raid tier?

Are you guys perhaps forgetting every expansion of WoW before Wrath? You know, the expansion where you said the "intro raid tier" was "undertuned"?

Molten Core? Gated to hell and back, between the attunement (or run through BRD), Tome of Tranq shot, reputation requirement for waters, not to mention the ridiculous gear hunting tanks had to do to hit defense cap because the warrior set wasn't suited for tanking.

Karazhan? All right, that was pretty easy for the first half of the instance. Curator changed the tone for the second half of the instance, and I'm sorry to say that most Malchazaar fights cheesed the fireballs.

If you need easy raids at the start of the expansion, one, you don't, and two, there's no need to make the entire instance cake.
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85 Human Priest
2825
Bash,

You're being logical! You cannot be logical on the forums!
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