Mild, Medium, Spicy, Hot.

100 Night Elf Rogue
18695
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.


First paragraph is both a lucid and well presented explanation that should settle a great deal of confusion for many people. It is heartening to know that you all see that.

Second paragraph? Pfft. Don't sweat it. You will not come across as "the bad guys" to those that comprehend the first.


No, first paragraph is a huge disappointment to everyone who was looking forward to Cata for being more like Classic.
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85 Troll Rogue
10660
05/24/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
You mean the tier with only 7 bosses? The one with the encounter journal that everyone thinks gives too much information and will trivialize learning the fights? That tier?


Having information on boss abilities within the game will make fights easier than alt+tabbing to a website to read literal strategies, group placements, phase descriptions, if not ways to cheese the encounter? Pardon my sarcasm, but that's amazing! And logical.


It's because of things like this that I frikken love Bashiok.

PLEASE HAVE MY BABIES!
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85 Goblin Rogue
11290
I am casual, sup.

I am not crying for or against any nerfs. What ever helps other people to raid, let it. Even if it requires to nerf simple game mechanics, where many others have done exceptionally well, while others, waste time.

I think in the end its the best interest for Blizzard® Entertainment to do this. That way, people that don't have time to learn simple game mechanics can breeze through and attempt to catch up to Firelands raid level. It will yield a small percentage of positive results, which in turn can help people trying to step up there game, or where it may help them pick up their interest on the game.

It would help for potential recruitment as well. Just saying.
Edited by Quiznos on 5/25/2011 7:31 AM PDT
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85 Human Mage
7905
05/25/2011 07:19 AMPosted by Azreluna
If you've completed Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight then you should focus on Firelands (you're ready to step up), but if you haven't yet seen most or any of BWD/BoT we want to make sure you're able to as soon as 4.2 comes out - not spend weeks running dungeons and grabbing the new gear before you can start progressing.


I guess I'm a little confused. Isn't the point of the two-tier point system (justice/valor) specifically so you have to spend a few weeks running dungeons and grabbing gear to progress?


Yes, a few weeks running dungeons as opposed to a few weeks running dungeons, followed by a few weeks raiding each of the previous tiers. They changed it so now you can do EITHER and get roughly the same results. If you run strictly raids, my guess is that you would not only be able to buy 359 gear with the justice points, but also get drops of ilvl 359 (some of which are not purchasable with valor points currently-i.e., wrists, wands, weapons, 2nd ring, 2nd trinket).
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85 Human Mage
5375
05/25/2011 07:26 AMPosted by Azreluna
No, first paragraph is a huge disappointment to everyone who was looking forward to Cata for being more like Classic.



classic had an easy entry level raid though and the raids then proceeded to get harder as the tiers advanced. blizzard is saying that this is how they would have done it with this expac had there been 2 tiers at launch instead of just 1.

what they wanted to do is actually a lot like classic was.


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24 Night Elf Priest
7575
You're not good enough to beat the instance when we first made it? We'll reduce the difficulty.

You're kid is not smart enough to pass the test? We'll just reduce the passing grade.


when people start using the terms "good enough" or "smart enoguh" or whatever in this debate, they too miss the point.

all that really matters in this game is that there is content that brings a variety of challenge to every player. whats more is that people realize that the natural progression of any ex pack is going to provide more variety for the hardcores at the beginning of the ex pack, and more variety for casuals towards the end of the ex pack.

sadly, the crybabies on both sides cant just shut up and wait their turn.


Wow. I was just stating my opinion and I was flamed for it.
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91 Night Elf Druid
15255
05/24/2011 06:08 PMPosted by Serenade
Instead of making easy content easier, can we make stuff like leveling, etc, appealing to people who want to do more than fall asleep reading text


with guild perks, heirlooms, dunegons, and resting, how the heck can leveling get any easier?

There are people who can get to lvl 85 in 3 weeks.
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85 Human Priest
3915
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.


I think this is exactly right, and probably has more than a little to do with the feeling that we don't have as much to do. Basically, hard modes are arite, but it feels like going through the same content again, which cheapens it somewhat. Stratifying the beginning raid content ala burning crusade was IMO a much better method.
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85 Gnome Priest
5740

I think this is exactly right, and probably has more than a little to do with the feeling that we don't have as much to do. Basically, hard modes are arite, but it feels like going through the same content again, which cheapens it somewhat. Stratifying the beginning raid content ala burning crusade was IMO a much better method.


They even sort of did it in wrath, where kt, maly, and sarth 2d+ made up the upper tier. Certainly in item levels, and I think you could make the case for it being the upper tier in difficulty too, although perhaps not the case with sarth 2d.
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I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.


This makes sense, but wouldn't it "make everyone happy" if Blizzard added 2 new easier 353 raids so that casual players can raid and gear up? At 9/12, my guild is boarderline casual, but I'll be sad if we don't hit 12/12 before the nerfs. Afterwards it will feel like a handout, and I know it will kill my interest... keep the challange and add a stepping stone... MUCH better solution IMO. It's not like Blizzard isn't getting enough revenue to make this financially viable. Heck, worse case, making an old lower level zone harder with 353 gear would have less impact than making a current zone easier.
Edited by Zuidam on 5/25/2011 9:09 AM PDT
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Having information on boss abilities within the game will make fights easier than alt+tabbing to a website to read literal strategies, group placements, phase descriptions, if not ways to cheese the encounter? Pardon my sarcasm, but that's amazing! And logical.

If you're cutting edge you've already seen the bosses on the PTR, you've already read the strategies before the patch is anywhere near release. What amounts to ability tooltips is not going to tell you how to beat a boss, or make you or your raid competent enough to do so.

It's a cool feature to put drop tables within the default UI, let people get some info on the bosses, and hopefully keep them from having to tab out of the game just to get (usually incorrect) boss ability info from the internets.


Makes complete sense. Now there is no reason to ask the herd of cats you have in your raid to get on some website outside of the game to look up a boss. Of course Tankspot will provide useful info with videos from people taking the time to record PTR content. Love the idea Blizz, less third party is a good thing.


Casual does not mean bad by any means. There are quite good players out there who are casual. The true difference: casuals schedule the game around their life, hardcores schedule their life around the game.


Happened to me! :'(
Edited by Katsumo on 5/25/2011 2:56 PM PDT
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81 Draenei Hunter
8455
05/24/2011 06:11 PMPosted by Yiffyton

You are a little confused...maybe this chart will help...

Posted first by Verelyse of Malygos
Motivated Disinterested
Casual Gets the job done Sucks
Hardcore ^ (but sooner) ^ (but wastes more time at it)

Again, this chart is retarded.

Stop using it.
Uh, no, it's actually exactly dead on, sorry you're too oblivious to get it.
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84 Night Elf Druid
5770
I think the biggest issue now is that Cataclysm didn't launch with an intro raid tier. We're now following through with the stair-step method of having one hard raid and one intro raid, but it took a while to see the plan through -- which is obviously a bit jarring. So now we have a new tier, VP converts to JP, the old tier gets stepped down and the new hotness is going to be that difficult climb.

I think if we had the intro tier/hard tier available (as we will in 4.2) when the expansion first launched it would feel more natural now to see that stair step just moving forward. With the current setup it seems like we're the bad guys going in and messing with your stuff, and that view is somewhat based on not really including the new harder tier in the equation since it's not available yet. It's just not going to be an issue when the new content is available, but for now it's something to make observations and personal declarations about.



Why didnt you guys?


You had the same issue in Wotlk (albiet in reverse in regards to difficulty). It really seems like you guys got caught surprised that there wasn't enough content/modes. From a casual glance, it looks nearly identical to the issues of first teir wotlk.


or is it just natural for the first teir? (i missed vanilla/bc, so im not sure if the first teir always feels like this, plus multiple paradigm shifts).

ps:
On the off chance this gets read, why did you pick 7 bosses for firelands? You've already noted in podcasts and stuff people burning through 12. Did you scale the # of bosses back because you weren't happy with not enough people seeing enough stuff? (since players are more than willing to bite off something much bigger than they can chew, as it were).
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
12930
Posted by Serenade
Instead of making easy content easier, can we make stuff like leveling, etc, appealing to people who want to do more than fall asleep reading text



with guild perks, heirlooms, dunegons, and resting, how the heck can leveling get any easier?

There are people who can get to lvl 85 in 3 weeks.


She didn't say easier, she said "appealing"

As in, leveling is boring and doesn't teach you how to play when you hit the cap.

But that's another thread.



Edit: It's not letting me do the double quoty-thingy but the second paragraph was in response to the top quoted thing.
Edited by Favrielle on 5/25/2011 11:32 PM PDT
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100 Undead Warrior
8190
05/24/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
Having information on boss abilities within the game will make fights easier than alt+tabbing to a website to read literal strategies, group placements, phase descriptions, if not ways to cheese the encounter? Pardon my sarcasm, but that's amazing! And logical.


Bashiok, i work in customer service as well and can i just say, your my hero. Keeping it real :D
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90 Tauren Druid
9750
05/24/2011 06:19 PMPosted by Supernerd
The one with the encounter journal that everyone thinks gives too much information and will trivialize learning the fights?


Putting information readily available by a simple google search in game is trivializing learning the fight? This is where no one should take you seriously anymore, or anyone else QQ'ing about the journal.
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