World of Warcraft®

FYI your "lol" crit EP is still higher than ours, and our haste is even lower.

Just sayin.

Sorry :(

On the bright side, if that change ever went through you would lose less dps than rogues! Yay... I guess.

06/06/2011 08:18 PMPosted by Rectangle

Shadowcraft says that my crit ep is at .94 (lol), and my agility ep is at 2.62

Agility has more EP than Crit because Agi gives AP, while crit just gives Crit, plus the whole "+% stats" types of buffs.

Crit rating gives more Crit than Agi does, and that's not something you can argue. It's cold hard facts of combat ratings.

You're complaining about Agi being converted into AP would cause you to lose crit, so don't compare the entire Agi stat to Crit rating.

If you're going to nit-pick about that small percentage of crit, Blizz's reaction will simply be to give a bigger AP boost than necessary, thus buffing Strength DPS.

I know more about rogue stat weights than you do, nothing you said was new to me. I wasn't comparing the ep value of crit to agility just for fun, I was stating what they were so the numbers in my next line of math would make sense. I'm going to quote the important part of that post in hopes that you'll catch it this time

Why should I be ok with you taking away enough of my crit to equal a loss of roughly 98.36 agility? That's more of an agility loss than taking up a crafting profession is an agility gain.

There's an obvious answer to this and it isn't to nerf dps specs that are already performing in the middle. Make less agility swords, make more agility axes, and stay the hell away from my crit.

Now just one last time to make sure that we're on the same page...

Using accepted equivalence formulas, I gave you the amount of agility (98.36) that I would have to lose in my current gear to receive the same dps loss that I would receive if I lost the crit granted to me solely through the agility on my weapons.

You could, right now, take away 98.36 of my agility and I would lose, let's say, 200 dps, or you could let me keep that 98.36 agility and just convert the agility on my weapons to an equal amount of ap that doesn't consider the amount of crit that I would lose, and I would still lose 200 dps.

I think I can do a better job of explaining it, hold on.

-98.36 agility in current gear=agility on weapons being converted to ap. I think that's the best I can do, really. Sorry if you still don't get it.

If you're going to nit-pick about that small percentage of crit, Blizz's reaction will simply be to give a bigger AP boost than necessary, thus buffing Strength DPS.

My first post about the agility -> crit thing specifically mentioned that you would have to come up with a way to allow me to keep the crit without allowing it to buff any non agility class using that weapon. This is really a bad idea. Please stop supporting it.

Very nice reply Daxxarri, I really wish shamans could get a hold of swords but looks like it won't happen :(

With an eye to the future, we're looking forward to two weapons suitable for Enhancement in Firelands that do not require killing Ragnaros. One of these weapons can drop from multiple bosses, so you can hold out hope that even if the first boss doesn’t drop what you're looking for, the next one might. There are also no agility swords this time around to take up those one-hander slots.

So...

Is that how Blizz is adressing the issue of having fewer bosses but having to cover the same number of gear slots?

06/07/2011 11:39 AMPosted by Daxxarri

Generally speaking, we don't set out to provide perfect itemization for every spec in the game for every tier of content (though we don't want to leave anyone totally out in the cold, either). Sometimes the item a particular class or spec wants is going to be a bit tougher to get. While that’s not an ideal situation and some specs are more prone to the effect than others, it is the kind of thing that is going to happen sometimes - otherwise every desirable weapon would be sitting on the first boss of every dungeon. We like to put weapons on end bosses because they feel exciting. I know some of you are frustrated about where it ended up, but we particularly wanted to put the axe on Nef because he also dropped one in Blackwing Lair.

Certainly a much better post this time.


The thing is, Nef's axe wasn't a very desirable weapon. It had Enhancement's weakest stats, and was also a carbon-copy of the BoE fist weapon.

It's fine that you put weapons on end-bosses. They are exciting. Weapon upgrades are the first things most people look for in a new tier. That is why itemization for Enhancement in t11 was so disheartening.

To clarify - we are not frustrated that the axe ended up on Nefarian. We are frustrated that it was the ONLY weapon choice that dropped off a boss, and the ONLY Heroic weapon choice for Enhancement.

06/07/2011 11:39 AMPosted by Daxxarri

We work very hard to keep itemization, including loot tables, from feeling too formulaic. We don’t want shaman to use swords for the same reason we don’t want druids using swords. Itemization would certainly be easier on us if every player could use every weapon in the game, but we also think it would be a lot less interesting. We've done some stat streamlining to make things easier, but we don't want to do so much that every weapon in a tier seems to be the same item with a different model.

This just brings us back to asking why Agility 1h swords are the only item still put on loot tables that create big item disparities. I point out that Strength polearms are no longer created, presumably because they screw over Fury Warriors, who can't use them. I also point out that 2h Agility maces are no longer created, presumably because they screw over Hunters. Yet 1h Agility swords, which screw over Enhancement, are ever-present.

I can has fist weapons now?

If I'm reading that blue post right, is he basically hinting that Enhancement is considered a "comparitively narrow niche" by Blizzard? I guess this isn't too unreasonable if there are as few raiding Enhance Shaman as I imagine. If you read into that description further it doesn't sound like we have too bright of a future.

Of course, I could be completely misreading his post. It looks like he quoted something of Matuk's and then talked about something completely different? It wasn't particularly easy to follow.

Generally speaking, we don't set out to provide perfect itemization for every spec in the game for every tier of content (though we don't want to leave anyone totally out in the cold, either). Sometimes the item a particular class or spec wants is going to be a bit tougher to get. While that’s not an ideal situation and some specs are more prone to the effect than others, it is the kind of thing that is going to happen sometimes - otherwise every desirable weapon would be sitting on the first boss of every dungeon. We like to put weapons on end bosses because they feel exciting. I know some of you are frustrated about where it ended up, but we particularly wanted to put the axe on Nef because he also dropped one in Blackwing Lair.

We work very hard to keep itemization, including loot tables, from feeling too formulaic. We don’t want shaman to use swords for the same reason we don’t want druids using swords. Itemization would certainly be easier on us if every player could use every weapon in the game, but we also think it would be a lot less interesting. We've done some stat streamlining to make things easier, but we don't want to do so much that every weapon in a tier seems to be the same item with a different model.

If you gave everyone a BiS cookie-cutter weapon every single patch, the endgame would become very boring. Of course, Heroic BiS weapons are Heroic BiS weapons (everyone wants one, not everyone gets one). Firelands seemed to fix a lot of the available loot that some classes complained about (in general, less unique-class/specc items --> Agi Swords). I particularly like the Token to upgrade VP items from 378 to 391. Because lets be honest, having the only Caster-itemized Leather Boots drop from Cho'gall and Sinestra was a little mean (extended raid lockouts are not fun when you skip 4 bosses D: ).

If I'm reading that blue post right, is he basically hinting that Enhancement is considered a "comparitively narrow niche" by Blizzard? I guess this isn't too unreasonable if there are as few raiding Enhance Shaman as I imagine. If you read into that description further it doesn't sound like we have too bright of a future.

Of course, I could be completely misreading his post. It looks like he quoted something of Matuk's and then talked about something completely different? It wasn't particularly easy to follow.

Upon re-reading, I should have been more clear, no question. What I was getting at is that that there's enough room to itemize for everyone, even if we’re designing items that aren’t 100% efficient. I'll clarify further, though.

Generally speaking, we don't set out to provide perfect itemization for every spec in the game for every tier of content (though we don't want to leave anyone totally out in the cold, either). Sometimes the item a particular class or spec wants is going to be a bit tougher to get. While that’s not an ideal situation and some specs are more prone to the effect than others, it is the kind of thing that is going to happen sometimes - otherwise every desirable weapon would be sitting on the first boss of every dungeon. We like to put weapons on end bosses because they feel exciting. I know some of you are frustrated about where it ended up, but we particularly wanted to put the axe on Nef because he also dropped one in Blackwing Lair.

We work very hard to keep itemization, including loot tables, from feeling too formulaic. We don’t want shaman to use swords for the same reason we don’t want druids using swords. Itemization would certainly be easier on us if every player could use every weapon in the game, but we also think it would be a lot less interesting. We've done some stat streamlining to make things easier, but we don't want to do so much that every weapon in a tier seems to be the same item with a different model.

With an eye to the future, we're looking forward to two weapons suitable for Enhancement in Firelands that do not require killing Ragnaros. One of these weapons can drop from multiple bosses, so you can hold out hope that even if the first boss doesn’t drop what you're looking for, the next one might. There are also no agility swords this time around to take up those one-hander slots.

Finally, some of you may be relieved to hear that the Shatterskull Bonecrusher was fixed to be 2.60 speed some time ago.

While I appreciate your response and get what you're saying, I simply think that reason for not giving swords to shaman is.... stupid. There's no other way to describe my opinion on this. It doesn't make it interesting, at all, for us to see an Agi Sword drop and then go "Oh, wait, none of our Rogues are Combat? Oh well, DE it."

The work that the art and loot teams go into to make these Agi Swords is put to waste because so few people use it, and it even SHARES a model with the other 1H dps swords in the game! So even when we do see the model in game, equipped on a player, we have no more interest then "Oh wow, that's a Combat Rogue, I thought they all went Mut."

While I'm not threatening to quit, because I'm enjoying this game still, WoW has lost thousands of subs, literally, because the devs are not listening to the playerbase as much as they should be. This is one of those cases that the devs could listen to the playerbase and try to alleviate our concerns. Most of the time you're not even communicating about why changes are made, (or worse, why changes are NOT made), which only makes it worse.

I 100% agree with everything Ragnarok has said, so I suggest the devs take his post into some serious consideration.

We're not so much looking to get the best itemized loot, all the time, every time, right off the first boss, or even necessarily always at the same time as everybody else.
We'd just like to have more than one option, with weapons that aren't literally the worst itemization possible.

Firelands weapon itemization is looking better for us this time around, so perhaps you've noticed all of our complaints over these months...

My personal complaint with Firelands loot is, while we do have multiple options, this time around we *don't* have an end-boss option (neither to Rogues, DW DKs, or SMF Warriors). Since Ragnaros gives higher item level loot, that is going to hurt us, since almost every other class in the game has a higher item level option from Rag, if not a legendary.

So when the "end boss" is harder but doesn't give higher ilvl loot, you decide to stick our ONLY weapon option on him, but when the end boss DOES give higher ilvl loot, you decide to "throw us a bone" and give us multiple options (lower ilvl) options from "easier" bosses...

Seriously?

06/07/2011 11:39 AMPosted by Daxxarri

Generally speaking, we don't set out to provide perfect itemization for every spec in the game for every tier of content (though we don't want to leave anyone totally out in the cold, either).

So why is there a crafted ilevel-365 agility 1-handed dagger (Brainsplinter) and sword (Pyrium Spellward) coming out in 4.2, but no weapon for enhancement. Non-raiding enhancement is being left out in the cold by making it a crafted sword instead of a crafted axe or letting enhancement use swords.

Enhancement seems to be the only spec left out by the crafted weapons in 4.2. The reason this topic has so much discussion is that this seems to be an often occurrence. There is an easy to get agility sword for rogues, but getting a weapon for enhancement is much much harder.

06/07/2011 11:39 AMPosted by Daxxarri

There are also no agility swords this time around to take up those one-hander slots.

Whoa whoa whoa, I don't like that. First you take out fast swords so all the rogues look silly having a big sword and dinky dagger in thier offhands, now you're telling me you aren't making anymore swords because the shamens feel left out?
Bad idea, I love swords, I wish you added more that would match instead of the mix matching we currently have. I despise axes, it was cool in ToC when the ability was granted to us, but I would prefer a sword to any other weapon any other day.
If this is the case just let use be able to choose what our weapons look like to us, let other people see what it really is, but on my screen I despise the disproportion style the weapons are going.
Please please please, gives us a sword, or at least a mace or axe that resembles one. I know you can't please everyone but do know that you are leaving a bad taste in a lot of rogues mouth.

06/07/2011 11:39 AMPosted by Daxxarri

Finally, some of you may be relieved to hear that the Shatterskull Bonecrusher was fixed to be 2.60 speed some time ago.

It still is a Haste/Crit weapon. I mean, I understand that interesting choices require that the player pays attention to the stats and how they interact with the character, but Haste and Crit are such mediocre stats for Enhancement Shamans that I am most sure everyone who is actually paying attention - as not every player does - is going to try to find a way around that weapon.

We have a 2.6 speed caster weapon in the Eye of Purification and our reliance on SP for AoE and half our damage could potentially make that a better choice. Gatecrasher, with Expertise, is a lot better. And maybe even the Blackcleave Chopper will end up being a better weapon. Even if it is a Strength weapon, steep Hit requirements as well as Mastery being our best secondary stat by a large margin might bring it up as a better option.

So when the "end boss" is harder but doesn't give higher ilvl loot, you decide to stick our ONLY weapon option on him, but when the end boss DOES give higher ilvl loot, you decide to "throw us a bone" and give us multiple options (lower ilvl) options from "easier" bosses...

Seriously?

Why are you complaining (rhetorical)? It's just like Magmaw for casters, but now melee (apparently). You have the possibility to get BOTH 378 weapons in one lockout period since one weapon is a raid-wide drop. You'll be getting options now. You're getting more love.

One of my very few upgrades for this content comes off Cho'gall and/or Sinestra. I have to kill two "end" bosses which are considered to be among the hardest to successfully down. And that's just for a pair of boots.

Know you've read that, asking for more when the development has taken initiative to improve loot and loot tables in favor of your itemization isn't exactly a "Thank you." You can't hit the jackpot every patch, sometimes playing the game is more fun than rolling 90+ on your drop.

06/07/2011 01:23 PMPosted by Zasso

There are also no agility swords this time around to take up those one-hander slots.

Whoa whoa whoa, I don't like that. First you take out fast swords so all the rogues look silly having a big sword and dinky dagger in thier offhands, now you're telling me you aren't making anymore swords because the shamens feel left out?
Bad idea, I love swords, I wish you added more that would match instead of the mix matching we currently have. I despise axes, it was cool in ToC when the ability was granted to us, but I would prefer a sword to any other weapon any other day.
If this is the case just let use be able to choose what our weapons look like to us, let other people see what it really is, but on my screen I despise the disproportion style the weapons are going.
Please please please, gives us a sword, or at least a mace or axe that resembles one. I know you can't please everyone but do know that you are leaving a bad taste in a lot of rogues mouth.

Cause this is a big issue.

06/07/2011 01:28 PMPosted by Aristonike

Cause this is a big issue.

Apparently it is if shamen complain about not being able to use swords, it is easier to take the fun away from everyone since the one kid who is left out can't play.

Hell I am even for letting combat rogues use a slow offhand if that would help loosen up the itemization problems currently in place.

But taking out something some people love just cause someone else is jealous of it, isn't fair at all.

06/07/2011 11:39 AMPosted by Daxxarri

We work very hard to keep itemization, including loot tables, from feeling too formulaic. We don’t want shaman to use swords for the same reason we don’t want druids using swords. Itemization would certainly be easier on us if every player could use every weapon in the game, but we also think it would be a lot less interesting. We've done some stat streamlining to make things easier, but we don't want to do so much that every weapon in a tier seems to be the same item with a different model.

Wouldn't it help somewhat if weapons (without spell power) weren't flagged as main hand or offhand in PVE? I mean, Maimgor's Bite is great and all, but would it have been such a bad thing for shamans to be able to use two of them?

As long as you have racial specializations offering expertise with different weapon types, you're always going to have players upset that some particular weapon/stat combo isn't available. Gnome rogues want daggers and swords, humans want maces and swords, and so on, just for the free stats they get from it. (And personally, I'm left wishing night elves had a dagger racial.)

Or the other way you could go for a solution would be more Sunwell-style vendors. You know, where you traded one item plus some form of currency for another item that's slightly different? For example, if you traded Fang of Twilight and 5 Chaos Orb for a Claws of Torment, then the sword is useful to shamans once converted, but the axe will be better still (especially to orc shamans).

Or you could throw back to classic, all the way to Molten Core days. Last boss of the instance gets a higher item level, so you could throw a Gutgore Ripper near the start, but the end boss's Perdition's Blade is still worthwhile.

The tech exists; sometimes I look back at something Blizzard did better 5 years ago and wonder why they think the game was so terrible back then.

06/07/2011 01:32 PMPosted by Zasso

Cause this is a big issue.

Apparently it is if shamen complain about not being able to use swords, it is easier to take the fun away from everyone since the one kid who is left out can't play.

Hell I am even for letting combat rogues use a slow offhand if that would help loosen up the itemization problems currently in place.

But taking out something some people love just cause someone else is jealous of it, isn't fair at all.

Precisely why I argue to just give Shaman swords and make everybody's lives easier.

Why are you complaining (rhetorical)? It's just like Magmaw for casters, but now melee (apparently). You have the possibility to get BOTH 378 weapons in one lockout period since one weapon is a raid-wide drop. You'll be getting options now. You're getting more love.

It's still a valid complaint. They're fixing one complaint while giving us more reasons to complain. Bad business.

06/07/2011 01:27 PMPosted by Perfectíon

You can't hit the jackpot every patch

We have literally never hit the jackpot.