Agi weapons...

85 Dwarf Priest
5940
So... it's been many, many patches since Rogues gained the ability to wield axes. I remember when the decision was made, and GC explained in a blue post why Shaman didn't get swords... it had some very strong points. I felt a little suspicious of how it would turn out, but I figured "What the hell, it'll probably work out."

And yet in all the patches since then, I still see an unusually large amount of 1H swords. We've seen 1H axes too, I agree... but still there's ALWAYS a 1H sword that Enhancement Shaman have wanted in every tier of content


Ha. That's pretty much exactly what we were all predicting would happen, that all opening Axes up to Rogues would do is give them another item guilds prioritize away from Shaman without actually fixing our dearth of weaponry. I recall making exactly that point in a reply post to GC, and similarly in TBC listed out all the epic 1Hers available, and something like 8 were usable by Shaman and 30 by Rogues, yet they kept throwing in multiple daggers and swords in every raid and tier.
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Community Manager
05/29/2011 06:13 PMPosted by Matuk
So... it's been many, many patches since Rogues gained the ability to wield axes. I remember when the decision was made, and GC explained in a blue post why Shaman didn't get swords... it had some very strong points. I felt a little suspicious of how it would turn out, but I figured "What the hell, it'll probably work out."


This kind of itemization isn't that unusual, nor is it peculiar to this situation. As others have pointed out, there are slow off-hands available which aren't broadly useful.

There's enough room in itemization for some flexibility, and that allows us to create niche items like slow off-hands or 1-handed swords with agility on occasion. Of course, if a particular item has a comparatively narrow niche, then it's more likely that fewer of those items will be introduced. Or, perhaps we'll place an item like Stormwake, the Tempest's Reach which potentially appeals to several different classes.
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55 Blood Elf Death Knight
90
06/02/2011 05:51 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So... it's been many, many patches since Rogues gained the ability to wield axes. I remember when the decision was made, and GC explained in a blue post why Shaman didn't get swords... it had some very strong points. I felt a little suspicious of how it would turn out, but I figured "What the hell, it'll probably work out."


This kind of itemization isn't that unusual, nor is it peculiar to this situation. As others have pointed out, there are slow off-hands available which aren't broadly useful.

There's enough room in itemization for some flexibility, and that allows us to create niche items like slow off-hands or 1-handed swords with agility on occasion. Of course, if a particular item has a comparatively narrow niche, then it's more likely that fewer of those items will be introduced. Or, perhaps we'll place an item like Stormwake, the Tempest's Reach which potentially appeals to several different classes.


I can respect you wanting to allow for items to appeal to a broader range of classes with examples such as the Stormwake one you've given. However, I beg you not to give us another "Throne of the Four Winds" type loot table again. It's been highly unpopular with most raiders for a good reason- the "wild card" aspect was taken a bit too far here.
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81 Human Hunter
1260
Enhance shamans have been screwed over weapon wise for..........a very long time just give them swords when they spec enhance bam problem solved.
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100 Dwarf Shaman
15560
Daxx, I think you missed the subtle hint of the thread that Enh shaman were left out in the cold for crafted epic weapons and you made a nice weapon that one single subpar rogue spec can use.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
13945
What the... blue?

Anyway, while we're on the subject of agility weapons.. Ragnaros items have been dug up, and there hasn't been a str or agi 1H weapon listed yet. Just thought I'd point that out.

I also would like to go back on my earlier comments about how it's not big deal that we were skipped over for a crafted 365 fist/axe/mace... I honestly didn't realize that -every- other spec/weapon type was covered by a crafted item, and I pointed at the Brewfest mace as an acceptable alternative - which it still is, but the exclusion in the crafting department is simply insulting. I thought that there were maybe 2-3 crafted items and that was it.. I was wrong.
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90 Orc Shaman
16180
This kind of itemization isn't that unusual, nor is it peculiar to this situation. As others have pointed out, there are slow off-hands available which aren't broadly useful.

There's enough room in itemization for some flexibility, and that allows us to create niche items like slow off-hands or 1-handed swords with agility on occasion. Of course, if a particular item has a comparatively narrow niche, then it's more likely that fewer of those items will be introduced. Or, perhaps we'll place an item like Stormwake, the Tempest's Reach which potentially appeals to several different classes.



Unfortunately, this raid teir of enhancement weapons have been particularly... painful. If I hadn't purchased my weapons off the AH, I wouldn't have them, simple as that. I've not seen any drop from trash since we started raiding in January.

I honestly don't have much of a problem with agility swords, since, y'know, whatever; what I do have a problem with however is the combination of the small number of Enhance weapons and the unfortunate placing that they have in loot tables, usually on a final boss. The combination just makes it a continued frustration that doesn't have to be. ICC, for example, didn't have this, and it was one of its better loot points. ToC and Ulduar, however, did not--especially ten man Ulduar, where the weapons only dropped from hard modes. If you weren't doing 25 at the time, and you were unlucky with the drops, then it was entirely possible that you ended up killing the final boss in ToC with a combination of Naxx and ToC five man weapons.

For the current teir, it is again made worse if you're raiding ten man content, since the loot tables there have a habit of being very repetitive and limited. Our tanks, for example, have seen virtually nothing in the way of tank loot in four months...
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100 Orc Shaman
20070
You can solve the 'comparatively narrow niche' problem by letting shamans use Swords, or removing Agi/Str all together on weapons and stacking them with loads of attack power.
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90 Draenei Hunter
12990
06/02/2011 05:51 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So... it's been many, many patches since Rogues gained the ability to wield axes. I remember when the decision was made, and GC explained in a blue post why Shaman didn't get swords... it had some very strong points. I felt a little suspicious of how it would turn out, but I figured "What the hell, it'll probably work out."


This kind of itemization isn't that unusual, nor is it peculiar to this situation. As others have pointed out, there are slow off-hands available which aren't broadly useful.

There's enough room in itemization for some flexibility, and that allows us to create niche items like slow off-hands or 1-handed swords with agility on occasion. Of course, if a particular item has a comparatively narrow niche, then it's more likely that fewer of those items will be introduced. Or, perhaps we'll place an item like Stormwake, the Tempest's Reach which potentially appeals to several different classes.
The problem with singling out weapon speeds here is that while rogues want fast offhand weapons, every other DW spec wants a slow offhand. Also, now that weapon specs have gone by the wayside, there's no reason for there NOT to be more axes and maces (that every single melee spec can use) rather than swords. Enhancement shouldn't have to clear an entire tier of content just to get a weapon they can actually use while other classes get their best weapons from early bosses (hunters get their best weapons from Halfus and V&T...makes total sense for a shaman to have to kill Nef...).

The issue with 1 spec weapons (unlike INT plate, since there are a lot of main spec holy paladins by design) is that there aren't a lot of people playing that particular spec and you essentially clog up loot tables with niche items (STR 1h weapons are used by 2 half-specs [Frost and Fury support both 1h and 2h] and unless STR 1h weapons only can have hit, expertise, and mastery, you have exclusive tank and exclusive DPS weapons). Combat isn't exactly a primary spec for rogues for the majority of encounters, either.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
13945
You can solve the 'comparatively narrow niche' problem by letting shamans use Swords, or removing Agi/Str all together on weapons and stacking them with loads of attack power.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12300
You can solve the 'comparatively narrow niche' problem by letting shamans use Swords, or removing Agi/Str all together on weapons and stacking them with loads of attack power.


This, so much this. There are time when I think the same should be done for trinkets, rings, and cloaks as well, but weapons are to the point where it would help so much.

Not only would this help with one-handers, but it would help two-handers as well. Yes there'd be more competition for loot, but there'd be more loot to go around. All melee have that nice Two-Handed axe? Give it to your Hunter. Two-Handed mace no one wants? Druid could get some use from it. All sorts of possibilities would open up.
Edited by Draykin on 6/2/2011 6:50 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
11640
I want to know why there are 0 Strength DPS Ranged weapons pre raid.
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85 Orc Rogue
5700
06/02/2011 06:44 PMPosted by Konnan
I want to know why there are 0 Strength DPS Ranged weapons pre raid.



They have one, It's that dumb BoE from BoT trash, I don't know why they did that but they did.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
13945
I don't remember if it's been mentioned in this particular thread, but.. how about the fact that there is an agility Bow, Crossbow AND Gun available at 378? Hopefully that datamined mace turns out good. 2.1 speed is a dead giveaway that it's not a finished item.. and I hope the crit/haste aren't staying. It needs to have hit - there's no way around it. The axe offers more expertise on ONE weapon that the racial bonus dwarves get from wielding maces instead of Axes.. so why even bother creating a mace if it doesn't have expertise or hit available on it? I don't know if that's a testament to how well itemized the axe is or what... but I hope it's understood that not all enhancement shaman are orcs. Racial expertise on axe/fist, extra feral spirit damage (hey, it used to matter) and free 2 minute cooldown are all things that all enhancement shaman would like to have... but don't.
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85 Orc Rogue
5700
06/02/2011 06:51 PMPosted by Quirk
Racial expertise on axe/fist



You know, i have mix feeling about it as a rogue, Hey as combat i have 3 bonus expertise but, We have to use a dagger offhand so our offhand is't exp cap. It should just count off your MH so your OH is capped to.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
13945
06/02/2011 06:55 PMPosted by Pjammiez
Racial expertise on axe/fist



You know, i have mix feeling about it as a rogue, Hey as combat i have 3 bonus expertise but, We have to use a dagger offhand so our offhand is't exp cap. It should just count off your MH so your OH is capped to.


Another itemization issue - removed fast sword/axe/mace/fist offhand weapons from the loot tables. Granted, that's a lot of items that would only be useful for combat rogues... unless they had taken a different direction with enhancement... but sacrifices had to be made somewhere, I guess.

You would think that a combat rogue could get away with using a slow offhand, though... maybe it should be that way. Killing spree already confuses enough people into thinking that they should, I'd bet.
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85 Orc Rogue
5700
06/02/2011 06:59 PMPosted by Quirk



You know, i have mix feeling about it as a rogue, Hey as combat i have 3 bonus expertise but, We have to use a dagger offhand so our offhand is't exp cap. It should just count off your MH so your OH is capped to.


Another itemization issue - removed fast sword/axe/mace/fist offhand weapons from the loot tables. Granted, that's a lot of items that would only be useful for combat rogues... unless they had taken a different direction with enhancement... but sacrifices had to be made somewhere, I guess.

You would think that a combat rogue could get away with using a slow offhand, though... maybe it should be that way. Killing spree already confuses enough people into thinking that they should, I'd bet.


Eh, Maybe, But like i said, It should just go off your MH so your not uncap on your offhand.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
13945
Expertise is the next ArPen. Next expansion they'll can it.
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100 Tauren Shaman
11960
So... it's been many, many patches since Rogues gained the ability to wield axes. I remember when the decision was made, and GC explained in a blue post why Shaman didn't get swords... it had some very strong points. I felt a little suspicious of how it would turn out, but I figured "What the hell, it'll probably work out."


This kind of itemization isn't that unusual, nor is it peculiar to this situation. As others have pointed out, there are slow off-hands available which aren't broadly useful.

There's enough room in itemization for some flexibility, and that allows us to create niche items like slow off-hands or 1-handed swords with agility on occasion. Of course, if a particular item has a comparatively narrow niche, then it's more likely that fewer of those items will be introduced. Or, perhaps we'll place an item like Stormwake, the Tempest's Reach which potentially appeals to several different classes.

So... with all due respect...

Could you actually address the topic? O_o

Because yeah... it's not peculiar to "this situation" as "this situation" has been the situation since Enhancement was a dual wield spec.

I'm pointing out that there's lots of melee Swords in the game, every tier, that I, as Enhancement, cannot use. I'm also pointing out that the original reason for allowing Rogues to wield Axes is no longer applicable (since DKs don't wield the same axes that Rogues and Shaman do).
And your response is... a random enchantment Sword, which I can't wield, that should somehow address the situation?

Everybody mentioned that there's slow off-hand-only weapons, but that's because they're Fist weapons. That's an entirely different problem (and one that the devs could solve if their resources were spent on figuring out how to mirror Fist weapon models without having a "main-hand" or "off-hand" requirement) and I consider it unrelated to this topic.

If there's a slow Agi weapon, (and it's not a Sword), it can be used by both Enhancement and Combat. If there's a fast Agi weapon, regardless of weapon type, it can only be used by Combat. If there's a slow Agi Sword, it can be used only by Combat.

I'm not asking for a weapon that only Enhancement can use. I'm just asking to be able to use the slow Agi swords that the devs, for some reason, keep putting in the game.

Would that really cause any negative repurcussions?


Also this:
06/02/2011 06:30 PMPosted by Quirk
You can solve the 'comparatively narrow niche' problem by letting shamans use Swords, or removing Agi/Str all together on weapons and stacking them with loads of attack power.
Edited by Matuk on 6/2/2011 7:22 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
So... it's been many, many patches since Rogues gained the ability to wield axes. I remember when the decision was made, and GC explained in a blue post why Shaman didn't get swords... it had some very strong points. I felt a little suspicious of how it would turn out, but I figured "What the hell, it'll probably work out."


This kind of itemization isn't that unusual, nor is it peculiar to this situation. As others have pointed out, there are slow off-hands available which aren't broadly useful.

There's enough room in itemization for some flexibility, and that allows us to create niche items like slow off-hands or 1-handed swords with agility on occasion. Of course, if a particular item has a comparatively narrow niche, then it's more likely that fewer of those items will be introduced. Or, perhaps we'll place an item like Stormwake, the Tempest's Reach which potentially appeals to several different classes.


Considering that in Cataclysm, there have only been 1 - at most 2 - choices for weapons for some classes, I wouldn't say that there is much room for flexibility at all.

Perhaps if we had like 5 weapon choices, niche weapons would make more sense. Using the current tier as an example, Enhancement had 1 overall weapon choice - Axe off Nefarian. Then we had 1 niche choice in Maimgor's Bite, and another niche choice in Claws of Torment (which, by the way, is a carbon-copy of Nefarian's axe). A 2-to-1 ratio of niche vs. not-niche doesn't work, especially if those choices don't translate to the entire tier of content (IE Heroic modes).


I fully realize that that itemization isn't unusual. That's why it's a problem. The goal when Rogues got axes was to make itemization better overall for Rogues/Enhancement. I'd argue it hasn't gotten better - this tier was the worst tier since that change for weapons, and arguably the worst tier since Burning Crusade launched and Enhancement became useful in PvE.
Edited by Raganrok on 6/2/2011 7:20 PM PDT
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