Thrash >>> Mangle

90 Worgen Druid
12790
Important Edit:

Sooooooo, it turns out I just suck at napkin math.

http://theincbear.com/4-2-announced-bear-changes/

After in-depth calculations and investigation, it turns out nothing actually changed in terms of what buttons we push. If anything, pushing Pulverize doesn't suck as much.

And that's pretty much it.




For single target, should these patchnotes go live. Is this intentional? At 14k AP, which is not hard to come by, by any standards, Thrash is a better GCD to push than Mangle. Our priority, which is centered around Berserk procing and pushing Mangle at every opportunity, suddenly becomes "Yeah, go ahead and mangle, but if THRASH is around, forget about Mangle!"

To be quite honest, that kind of defeats the purpose of having an iconic ability and a talent that allows more frequent use.


New Numbers, using my current gear and all available raid buffs(and Mew.Bear):

Mangle -
Average damage: 20089.5499
Average threat: 60270.14235


Thrash -
Direct Damage
Average damage: 11398.4984
Average threat: 34196.97192

DoT (Per Tick)
Average damage: 3433.23402
Average threat: 10299.70205

Total Average Threat: 65096.07807


Old Numbers -

Mangle -
Average damage: 23690.4023
Average threat: 71072.6758

Thrash -
Direct Damage
Average damage: 12911.9259
Average threat: 38737.24746

DoT (Per Tick)
Average damage: 2818.93416
Average threat: 8456.80248

Total Average Threat: 64107.6549


Mangle went from a 5k threat lead to a 5k threat deficit. Again, is this intentional?
Edited by Reesi on 5/27/2011 6:34 AM PDT
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94 Blood Elf Paladin
18935
Is that 1 hit of mangle vs 1 hit of thrash?
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85 Draenei Warrior
0
thos numbers are fine since mangle is still a lot better snap.
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94 Blood Elf Paladin
18935
well, if it counts over 6 seconds, wouldn't you get two mangles off in the space of that time?
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
05/26/2011 04:47 PMPosted by Plethora
Is that 1 hit of mangle vs 1 hit of thrash?

Averaged hits over the course of a 400s fight with 10000 iterations. But yes, 1v1.

Vengeance levels were very slightly higher in the old model, but not enough to make a large difference.

05/26/2011 04:51 PMPosted by Plethora
well, if it counts over 6 seconds, wouldn't you get two mangles off in the space of that time?

Depends on Mangle Procs, but if Mangle and Thrash are both off CD, we will be pushing Thrash, which is the point.

@Xurk - Better snap, but not by much anymore, and within seconds, Thrash will have been better.
Edited by Reesi on 5/26/2011 4:57 PM PDT
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55 Draenei Death Knight
0
His point is that Blizzard said they wanted bears to move away from pushing AOE abilities for single-target rotations. Last patch, they made Thrash good enough to put into the single target rotation.

If this patch goes through, it makes Thrash our BEST single target TPS ability, which is directly contrary to what was stated earlier in terms of class design.

It's also frustrating to have Mangle, as Reesi says our iconic ability, continuously get nerfed. We have no "hard" single target hitting ability. DS, SoR, and SS all hit harder than our current mangle does, with this change, mangle hits even less.

It would be really nice to STOP seeing a massive nerf for every single bear ability every other patch. Can we please get some direction for the class?
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85 Night Elf Death Knight
14080
05/26/2011 04:50 PMPosted by Xurk
thos numbers are fine since mangle is still a lot better snap.

Let's put it on a different perspective: if Thrash had a 3s CD like Swipe, you probably wouldn't use Mangle outside Berserk procs.

If the numbers stay like that you'll only use Mangle, your signature move, theoretically hardest hitting one, that button you should feel excited for pushing, because Thrash isn't up.

Not fine.
Edited by Morrigan on 5/26/2011 5:06 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
8135
This is only true in unlimited-rage situations. Otherwise, the fraction of a Maul you get from using Mangle instead of Thrash more than makes up the difference, right?
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
05/26/2011 05:04 PMPosted by Munchausenz
Patch coming out must be time to kick the druid. this doesnt add much to the conversation. We may scale to heavily we may not but these changes are too heavy handed.

No, the overall TPS loss is negligible, even in my gear (it gets higher as gear improves). I only lose about 5k TPS, and given the amount of ridiculous TPS I can put out, I'm not worried about that.

What I'm worried about is having Mangle be put on the back burner, and making Berserk(procs) a superfluous afterthought.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
14505
A tank spec having it's signature ability marginalized? Well I never!

*Storms off in a huff*

...

*Adds this to the list of things titled "WTF is Blizzard doing?"*

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85 Draenei Warrior
0
its 6 full seconds after you thrash that you catch up to mangle.
6 seconds is 5 lifetimes in snap threat situations.
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
its 6 full seconds after you thrash that you catch up to mangle.
6 seconds is 5 lifetimes in snap threat situations.

I'll let you know when the discussion is about snap threat and not about threat over the course of an entire fight.

You'd be pushing Mangle first anyway, since Thrash will need 30% bleed debuff to be better. After that, you're pushing Thrash over mangle should they come off CD at the same time. That is what I'm talking about and what I'm not okay with.
Edited by Reesi on 5/26/2011 5:21 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12490
We have no "hard" single target hitting ability. DS, SoR, and SS all hit harder than our current mangle does, with this change, mangle hits even less.

Do you have any numbers to support that? If I use the DK from Reesi's guild, his DS will be within 1k damage of mangle.

I understand the concern for bear damage, but it would be nice to get accurate comparisons.

05/26/2011 04:57 PMPosted by Urthwyte
It's also frustrating to have Mangle, as Reesi says our iconic ability, continuously get nerfed.

Welcome to DK-land! I agree with the OP that it is stupid; subbing in thrash for single target is dumb. Nerfing your signature strike so it isn't near top priority is equally dumb and more stability for your class would be nice. However, when you compare it to other classes, it would be nice to see math. I would like to know where this places druids relative to other tanks.
Edited by Dosvidaniya on 5/26/2011 5:23 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
Do you have any numbers to support that? If I use the DK from Reesi's guild, his DS will be withing 1k damage of mangle.

What DK? O_o Any DK you'd be using is an offspec or alt.

With no offense meant to DKs, you have no talent that specifically makes it a priority to hit heart strike like we do Mangle. And I know, I know, you're in a land of convoluted mechanics.

I mean, During Berserk(on-use), we'd still be hitting Thrash on CD... when we should just be spamming mangle the entire time. :/
Edited by Reesi on 5/26/2011 5:26 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12490
What DK? O_o Any DK you'd be using is an offspec or alt.

He was in his offspec tank gear which just switched.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/zachknight/advanced

He was at 369 iLevel, with the trinkets and relics at non-heroic levels.

05/26/2011 05:25 PMPosted by Reesi
With no offense meant to DKs, you have no talent that specifically makes it a priority to hit heart strike like we do Mangle.

I know; but the design where your signature strike becomes low priority is really rather counter-intuitive no matter how often you use it. You're saying that it's dumb because of your talents. I'm saying it's dumb because it's your signature strike. Both are true in my opinion.
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14 Dwarf Hunter
30
05/26/2011 05:02 PMPosted by Morrigan
thos numbers are fine since mangle is still a lot better snap.

Let's put it on a different perspective: if Thrash had a 3s CD like Swipe, you probably wouldn't use Mangle outside Berserk procs.

If the numbers stay like that you'll only use Mangle, your signature move, theoretically hardest hitting one, that button you should feel excited for pushing, because Thrash isn't up.

Not fine.


heart strike?
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
He was in his offspec tank gear which just switched.
<a href="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/zachknight/advanced">http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/zachknight/advanced</a>

He was at 369 iLevel, with the trinkets and relics at non-heroic levels.

Figured you looked at Zach, heh. He'll tank 5 mans, but that's it.

05/26/2011 05:36 PMPosted by Freph
heart strike?

See comment about DKs not having a talent that makes it more available. Their rotation wasn't centered around Heart Strike since 4.0. Ours has been centered around Mangle.
Edited by Reesi on 5/26/2011 5:37 PM PDT
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Let's put it on a different perspective: if Thrash had a 3s CD like Swipe, you probably wouldn't use Mangle outside Berserk procs.

If the numbers stay like that you'll only use Mangle, your signature move, theoretically hardest hitting one, that button you should feel excited for pushing, because Thrash isn't up.

Not fine.


heart strike?


Avenger's shield?

So basically every tanks level 10 spell but warriors.
Goddamn warriors.

EDIT: I see what your saying Reesi but is it really that big a deal if it a negligible threat loss and doesn't cause rotation issues? I think everyone is basically saying that this change really isn't without precedent for tanks.
Edited by Barwicka on 5/26/2011 5:38 PM PDT
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