Heirlooms in low level pvp

80 Human Priest
2570
Why are heirlooms allowed in low level pvp? They literally allow certain classes to one shot other classes. I've leveled a lot of characters before, and I never remember low level pvp being this bad. Twinks were removed from regular queues, but were replace by alts geared up in heirloom gear, which is possibly worse.

Some people claim that trying to balance low level pvp is a waste of time. Considering how much time you spend leveling a character, especially if you're new to the game, I don't think it would be a waste of time at all. Cataclysm was very much targeted towards newer players, and retaining their subscription. I'm sure the absolute lack of attention towards balancing anything below level 85 has influenced people to unsubscribe.

Imagine being a new player to WoW, and having a lot of fun playing the game. All of a sudden, you get level ten and try out a new thing called 'battlegrounds'. You're excited to try it out, and see another player on the opposing faction with some heirloom gear. You try to attack him, and he kills you as soon as you get anywhere near him.

Afterwards, you decide to try to hang with your team. You're going for the flag in warsong gulch, and you're one shot by a rogue who you couldn't see. You try to figure out why you're dying so quickly, only to find out that it's because you don't have a max level character able to obtain heirlooms.

If any player tries to describe his experiences in lower level pvp, he's immediately hit with "pvp isn't balanced until level 85, get over it". Getting to max level is a pretty daunting task for a newer player. Do you remember the first time you hit the level cap? For me and most of my friends, it seemed to take an eternity.

Lower level pvp doesn't need to be absolutely perfectly balanced. All I ask it the blizzard at least tries, for their sake and for the players sake.
Edited by Whitesheep on 6/5/2011 2:45 PM PDT
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77 Undead Mage
730
Twinks were removed from regular queues, but were replace by alts geared up in heirloom gear, which is possibly worse.


A real twink could easily 1 shot someone with full heirlooms. So no, theyre not worse.


Also,

because you don't have a max level character able to obtain heirlooms.


You don't need a max level character to obtain heirlooms. You can buy them with honor. Problem?

Edited by Spicyy on 6/5/2011 2:51 PM PDT
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80 Human Priest
2570
A real twink could easily 1-2 shot someone with full heirlooms. So no, theyre not worse.


Care to expand at all? Most twinks would have similar gear to what any player could obtain. For example, a lot of twinks in the 19 bracket used cruel barbs. That weapon was very easily obtainable by anyone. Obviously, this isn't always the case. An heirloom however, almost always outclasses any weapon at that level.

You don't need a max level character to obtain heirlooms. You can buy them with honor. Problem?


Unless they changed something recently, low level pvp awards VERY little honor. Getting the pvp armor and weapons would take a very long time to obtain this way. Also, the head and cape heirlooms are only obtainable by having a high reputation with your guild, and having a lot of gold. Both of these thing would keep someone new to the game from obtaining them.
Edited by Whitesheep on 6/5/2011 2:56 PM PDT
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77 Undead Mage
730
Maybe new players should run dungeons for some gear before playing then.


Hell, my paladin in all dungeons blues can destroy people in BoA's. They're not that far off stat-wise.
Edited by Spicyy on 6/5/2011 3:03 PM PDT
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60 Night Elf Druid
610
Maybe new players should run dungeons for some gear before playing then.


Hell, my paladin in all dungeons blues can destroy people in BoA's. They're not that far off stat-wise.


This still ruins the experience, i've posted a similar thread before i even saw this one, I'm trying to regain my passion for this game in a completely new experience and BOAs make it really unfun.

Saying "Deal with it" is not constructive.
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80 Human Priest
2570
Maybe new players should run dungeons for some gear before playing then.


Hell, my paladin in all dungeons blues can destroy people in BoA's. They're not that far off stat-wise.


Even if you obtain decent gear from dungeons, you still won't be competitive with characters in heirlooms. Not only because their gear will still be better stat wise, but also because their gear scales. You will have to run dungeons to replace you gear a lot, whereas most of their gear will always be top of the line.

Also, I'm pretty doubtful that your paladin in dungeon blues is DESTROYING people with heirlooms. Even so, I will say that you should try to level a balance druid or an elemental shaman, and see if you get the same experience.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
3435
Ok, I leveled up this character during TBC. I ran a couple of instances and by level 17 I was able to one or two shot people in bad gear. Not much is different now.

Imagine being a new player to WoW, and having a lot of fun playing the game. All of a sudden, you get level ten and try out a new thing called 'battlegrounds'. You're excited to try it out, and see another player on the opposing faction with some heirloom gear. You try to attack him, and he kills you as soon as you get anywhere near him.


This happens if the level 10 is in full BoAs and the level 14 has some quest rewards and isn't totally clueless. The lowest level in the bracket range is always the hardest solely because of level difference.


"Deal with it" may not be the answer you want to hear, but it is the best answer to your problem. Dying in pvp happens a lot. Someone new to the game, to use your example, needs to understand that and understand that there really isn't a penalty other than the respawn timer. Getting your butt kicked in pvp is either going to make you want to, and get better, or quit pvp entirely. Both solutions improve the quality of pvp. If you're the type to run away from a challenge and some fleeting failure, then stick to questing. Harsh words, but necessary.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
2980
Not to mention.

Imagine being a new player to wow, Just hitting level 10, and going into a nifty thing called battleground. You have no idea what to expect, no experience, no clue what class will face roll yours without blinking. You literally KNOW NOTHING. If you go into a battleground, compeletely new to the game, and expect to be stomping face left and right, you deserve to get smacked down without the other person blinking.

I have seen hunters in starting greys and greens, beat the ever loving crap out of full heirloomed melee, and casters. I've seen warriors in full green roflstomp all over casters/hunters in full loom if they don't get slowed or CCed for distance. I've seen paladins, just plow through everything. And yes, it is possible. Self healing as a paladin in the low levels is disgusting. Ret get's decent damage if they don't waste their charges on WoG, holy paladins generally just spam HL and judgement, and unless the other player can self heal, or has a healer, they win through pure attrition, or the DPS turning and going off to find someone they can kill. Discpriest is THE Spec for a caster for low level BGs. Shielding, self healing, and penance one shots.

Heirloom is not the best in slot gear except for very rare occasions. Calling someone in heirloom gear a twink proves how little you know. Which is what I say to everyone I've come across that's called an heirloom character a twink.
Edited by Felinos on 6/5/2011 3:35 PM PDT
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19 Blood Elf Paladin
545
I agree. I think Heirlooms should go or automatically put you into XP off battle grounds. Something, but what the trend is currently is Heirloom recycle twinks abusing gear advantages to fill their hole in their soul...
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
2980
Hush. It's how I relieve the tension of a bad day.
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80 Human Priest
2570
Ok, I leveled up this character during TBC. I ran a couple of instances and by level 17 I was able to one or two shot people in bad gear. Not much is different now.

Imagine being a new player to WoW, and having a lot of fun playing the game. All of a sudden, you get level ten and try out a new thing called 'battlegrounds'. You're excited to try it out, and see another player on the opposing faction with some heirloom gear. You try to attack him, and he kills you as soon as you get anywhere near him.


This happens if the level 10 is in full BoAs and the level 14 has some quest rewards and isn't totally clueless. The lowest level in the bracket range is always the hardest solely because of level difference.


"Deal with it" may not be the answer you want to hear, but it is the best answer to your problem. Dying in pvp happens a lot. Someone new to the game, to use your example, needs to understand that and understand that there really isn't a penalty other than the respawn timer. Getting your butt kicked in pvp is either going to make you want to, and get better, or quit pvp entirely. Both solutions improve the quality of pvp. If you're the type to run away from a challenge and some fleeting failure, then stick to questing. Harsh words, but necessary.


I leveled a couple of characters during bc and I never remember being killed even close to this quickly by any rogue that wasn't a twink.

It doesn't matter if you're level 14 or 10 in that bracket, the person decked out in heirloom gear is going to win 100% of the time.

Your last point doesn't make any sense to me. You never gave a good reason as to why the "Deal with it" mentality is right. Dying in pvp is happening a lot in this case because one player was able to buy heirlooms on their max level character, while the other player was not able to do this. Also, I don't see how a new player to the game should just accept that they are getting destroyed in pvp for something completely out of their control. Getting killed over and over again by someone with significantly better gear than you isn't going to make anyone get better.
Edited by Whitesheep on 6/5/2011 3:41 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
3435
What did you not understand about my last paragraph? I explained how dealing with it works, i.e. you either get better at pvp or you quit pvp.

And I can tell you from experience that a level 10 in BoAs can get one shot by someone higher level without any. Don't know if you've played enough BGs to notice.

Rogues were pretty much always able to one shot clothies, and undergeared shaman, rogues and druids, sometimes hunters too. Don't know what class you played in TBC.

Honestly, if you truly have been playing since TBC, then you should have a better understanding of the way lower level BGs work, and have pretty much always worked. Maybe you need a break from them?
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39 Night Elf Hunter
1050
06/05/2011 03:40 PMPosted by Whitesheep
Also, I don't see how a new player to the game should just accept that they are getting destroyed in pvp for something completely out of their control. Getting killed over and over again by someone with significantly better gear than you isn't going to make anyone get better.


If it's the gear, then why have the lower level xp-off brackets agreed not to use certain abilitys. These are the people in BIS gear, far better then any one with just BoAs. It's the damage scaling not the gear. I can one shot even the BiS geared players at level 39 with AS. Gear won't save you from AS.
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80 Human Priest
2570
Not to mention.

Imagine being a new player to wow, Just hitting level 10, and going into a nifty thing called battleground. You have no idea what to expect, no experience, no clue what class will face roll yours without blinking. You literally KNOW NOTHING. If you go into a battleground, compeletely new to the game, and expect to be stomping face left and right, you deserve to get smacked down without the other person blinking.

I have seen hunters in starting greys and greens, beat the ever loving crap out of full heirloomed melee, and casters. I've seen warriors in full green roflstomp all over casters/hunters in full loom if they don't get slowed or CCed for distance. I've seen paladins, just plow through everything. And yes, it is possible. Self healing as a paladin in the low levels is disgusting. Ret get's decent damage if they don't waste their charges on WoG, holy paladins generally just spam HL and judgement, and unless the other player can self heal, or has a healer, they win through pure attrition, or the DPS turning and going off to find someone they can kill. Discpriest is THE Spec for a caster for low level BGs. Shielding, self healing, and penance one shots.

Heirloom is not the best in slot gear except for very rare occasions. Calling someone in heirloom gear a twink proves how little you know. Which is what I say to everyone I've come across that's called an heirloom character a twink.


I never said anything about a new player expecting to go into a battleground at level 10 and own everything. It never even had to be a new player to begin with. I was only making that point to give you some perspective as to why low level pvp could influence newer players to unsubscribe.

Even if I was an experienced player, if I don't have heirlooms, I'm getting one or two shot by someone who does. Also, I am very doubtful of your story about hunters in starting greys destroying any sort of class with heirlooms. A hunter at that level in starting greys would probably have a bit less than 200 health, which is at most an ambush and a sinister strike from a rogue. The rest of your stories are just you explaining how imbalanced low level pvp is, so I don't know if you're agreeing with me or not.

Even if there are better pieces of armor than heirlooms, they don't scale like heirlooms. You can get a piece of armor that may be better this level, but you are going to have to replace it extremely quickly if you want to keep up.

Also, I don't know why you're insulting me at the end there. I never insulted you, or anyone who uses heirlooms for that matter.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
3435
06/05/2011 03:50 PMPosted by Whitesheep
Also, I don't know why you're insulting me at the end there. I never insulted you, or anyone who uses heirlooms for that matter.


He didn't insult you there.
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80 Human Priest
2570
If it's the gear, then why have the lower level xp-off brackets agreed not to use certain abilitys. These are the people in BIS gear, far better then any one with just BoAs. It's the damage scaling not the gear. I can one shot even the BiS geared players at level 39 with AS. Gear won't save you from AS.


If you're playing in the lower level xp-off brackets, you've obtained, or almost obtained the best in slot armor for your class. Someone in heirloom gear is going to have a lot harder time killing someone who is also in heirloom gear. Just like someone in questing gear is going to actually have a chance at killing someone else in questing gear.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the damage scaling has a lot to do with low level pvp being imbalanced, but not every class has an ability like aimed shot that does a huge amount of damage in a short period of time.
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80 Human Priest
2570
What did you not understand about my last paragraph? I explained how dealing with it works, i.e. you either get better at pvp or you quit pvp.

And I can tell you from experience that a level 10 in BoAs can get one shot by someone higher level without any. Don't know if you've played enough BGs to notice.

Rogues were pretty much always able to one shot clothies, and undergeared shaman, rogues and druids, sometimes hunters too. Don't know what class you played in TBC.

Honestly, if you truly have been playing since TBC, then you should have a better understanding of the way lower level BGs work, and have pretty much always worked. Maybe you need a break from them?


I don't understand how being one shot is going to make anyone get better at pvp, but sure, it will make some quit pvp.

I'm sure it's possible for a level 10 in boas to get one shot, but it's also very possible for him to kill a level 14 before they can even react.

Rogue's have never been this out of control at these levels in my opinion, but I do agree that pvp at these levels has never been balanced.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
2980
It's a point of. It's possible to one shot someone if you are NOT wearing BOA gear. Even a BOA player, in full boa, only has a handfull more hp. like 20-30, maybe as much as 100 more. What makes the difference between someone that goes in to %*!# face, and someone that doesn't. Is whether or not the gear is ENCHANTED.

I laugh when I see someone in full BOA with less than 600 HP. And it's so easy to see that. Casters, hunters, rogues, doesn't matter what it is. And aimed shot isn't all that until around the 20s bracket. Before then, if you're not survival, you're getting stomped. A hunter with 340 hp. Last BG I was just in. 30 kills 2 deaths. All green/grey. against BOA rogues

Why? Two words, concussion shot. Paladins? Hello hammer of justice. Rarely do a see a mage use sheep in the low levels. Gear does play a part, but after a certain point, you can't say heirlooms are wrecking things Because flat out, they aren't.
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