Topic
Holy Shield in 4.2
Why should i care that i have 10% less block value when i dont need it when i can have 10% MORE block value when i do? There's no guarantee that any of the incoming attacks will be blocked while it is up. Using it 'when you need it' basically makes it worse overall than using it on cooldown. At least when you use it on cooldown, you're getting the max coverage, for a maximum amount of damage reduction. (I could see not using it at all when a boss is not attacking you, but that still doesn't make it better, since you aren't taking damage then anyway.) |
Once again, it's block VALUE, not block CHANCE. |
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Edited by Larceny on 6/10/11 5:21 AM (PDT)
Unless you block cap which we can do in sub 359 gear. Otherwise this also true of our block now and avoidance. But with a 1.8debuffed boss swing timer and 55% block chance the odds of NOT blocking once is 1.18%. For slightly easier math lets assume a 2 second swing timer: Odds of at least 1 blocks:98.15% Odds of 2 blocks:86.88% Odds of 3blocks: 59.31% Odds of 4 blocks: 25.62% Odds of 5blocks:5.03% Odds of 6 block: not possible in the time frame. A 60% chance of 3 blocks.
How? You mean for total damage reduction? Total damage reduction is a meaningless stat. During the normal parts of the fight where the healers are spamming their low cost heal they are practically regenning every heal. Its during the spike damage when they have to use their inefficient heals that causes them to go oom....you know when your supposed to use CDs.
Who cares? Your not saving your healers any mana then. Damage reduction is only important when your tank massive damage. If healers were going oom from the normal parts of the fight they would go oom in less than a minute. This is what i meant by you not seeing the forest from the trees. A 2-3% drop in damage mitigation during the part of the fight where you dont need it is trivial. In exchange you get a 2-3% increase in mitigation when its important and want ever fraction of a percent you can get. 2-3% increase in mitigation is what you normally get from trinkets are you going to start using trinkets on cd are save them for when you need them? This increase in DR when needed is a good thing. Its why we tanks prefer on use trinkets over procs. The procs might be more powerful but we cant depend on them to be there when we need it most. Edit: math error corrected. |
That's incorrect; that's the mathematical trap that I mentioned, which you've fallen into. Unless you've reached 102.4% block, with 0% parry and 0% dodge - and even then, there's still the 5% miss chance that any character has - then there is no degree of certainty. Dodge, parry and miss push block off the combat table. This is designed so that block doesn't overwrite 'better' avoidance stats. Let's play with some numbers. If you are at 102.4% avoidance, with 15% dodge, 15% parry, and 5% miss - very reasonable numbers, and in all likelihood, at the levels of gear we're talking, vastly understated - you have a MAXIMUM chance to block of 67.4%. This means that in a situation of 100 melee strikes, you will block only 66 of them. (67.4/102.4% = 65.8% - we'll round up to 66.) The others will be dodged, parried, or will miss. (34 of them.) Furthermore - your numbers are a classical example of a gambler's fallacy. You're working under the false assumption that precedent events affect subsequent events. They do not. And it is entirely possible that there will be a string of parries, a string of blocks, or even a string of misses during the time period. You've calculated it wrong, and thus, you've based your assumptions off of incorrect and logically false data. How? You mean for total damage reduction? TDR is not a meaningless stat. Like all ways of looking at tank survivability - EH, TDR, combat table coverage - there are pros and cons. A consummate tank will understand that different situations require different modes of thinking - and gearing. In a situation where damage is 100% physical - which is uncommon, admittedly, but it does happen (see: halfus (under most circumstances), Chimaeron (at least, the part that kills tanks), Atramedes (again, the part that kills tanks, not the 'don't stand in this'), Maloriak (add tank in regular, non shadow adds in HM)) - TDR is extremely important. If a tank takes a predictable amount of damage, then lessening that damage makes them easy to heal. This is why Death Knight tanks are VERY easy to heal, because their 'block' analogue affects magical damage as well. Furthermore, if you'd ever done hardmodes, you'd know that in most cases, healers are NOT using their cheap, efficient heals, and a quick gaze at any WoL parse will show you that. Finally, TDR lessens the impact of spike damage. These are basic lessons that anyone with even cursory knowledge of tanking and healing should know. The fact that you do not - and then decide to debate me about it - is frankly insulting.
A drop in mitigation throughout the fight, in exchange for a temporary increase to mitigation - an unreliable increase, whose duration is too short to be effective - is an unacceptable loss. I've provided the numbers - the math is solid. Your math is wrong, based on logical fallacies and mathematical traps. Please re-evaluate your numbers, and you will see this to be the case. |
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Edited by Larceny on 6/10/11 4:33 AM (PDT)
That's incorrect; that's the mathematical trap that I mentioned, which you've fallen into...You've calculated it wrong, and thus, you've based your assumptions off of incorrect and logically false data. You are not calculating the combat tables right. Do you even know how the combat tables are generated or the 102.4% number comes about? For each level above you you lose 0.2% from dodge/parry/miss/and block. 100%+0.2%*4stats*3levels=102.4% 67.4%-0.2%*3levels=66.8% Not 65.8%. Using your example the boss throws 100swings you block 67% of them before using the cd and after. That means that of the damage you would NORMALLY take you get to remove an extra 20% Lets say 30k on an unblocked hit, 21k on blocked hit, 15k on blocked hits with HS up. Before HS you take 1386k damage. After HS you take 990k damage. Thats 28.5% LESS damage. Now lets say your dodge and parry go up. Now you only get hit 50 times Before HS: 1050k damage. After HS:750 WHAT DO YOU KNOW 28.5% Less damage its the same!!! Now how much damage would you take with the current HS? In this case its 18k per hit. 66strikes:1188k. The new cd saves 16.67% damage!!! Dodges and misses dont diminish the value of the cd. Not at all. Also i did not fall for the gambler's fallacy. I calculated the chance of being hit every single time. IE the chance of never blocking Lets use your numbers with my CORRECTIONS: 66.8% To find this we find the CHANCE of never blocking a single blow. To find this we just multiply the chance of not blocking by itself for each possible hit. Rember 10second duration with a 1.8second boss swing timer) 0.322^(10/1.8)=0.002186 Less than one percent. Thus there is a less than 1% chance of never blocking (which in your example is a good thing it means we took 0 damage). The others i did have a mistake on and will correct later. But you still have a sub 1% chance of not getting a single block. Does not matter if its miss dodge parry block miss dodge or if its block miss dodge dodge miss parry its the chance of BLOCKING AT LEAST ONCE!!! 99.8% As well as all combinations with 2 blocks, 3 blocks 4 blocks 5blocks. Maybe you need to invest in a basic statistics book. |
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TDR is not a meaningless stat. Like all ways of looking at tank survivability - EH, TDR, combat table coverage - there are pros and cons. A consummate tank will understand that different situations require different modes of thinking - and gearing. Its meaningless in this case. It would only become meaningful if you took enough extra damage that it changed the way a healer heals you. At 30k hits and a 1.8second swing timer the 2.4% damage increase would be 400 more damage. Holy light heals a few orders of magnitude more than that. Your getting holy light spam reguardless.
You do know ret pallies who have VASTLY less damage than us have tanked Chimaeron? You only need to have 10k hp after taking a hit not to die. Similarly once your not tanking multiple drakes you stop using cds.
Post this in the tank forum and you will get laughed at. BLOOD SHIELD DOES NOT AFFECT MAGIC DAMAGE!!! Its only physical!!!
And they have the regen to support it. Tanks have more avoidance as well and they can stack stamina there because healer regen can support it.
Good thing that were not losing any block or avoidance then. Only having its effectiveness decreased when we DONT need it and its effectiveness increased when we DO!!! Spike damage during boss burst>>>spike damage the rest of the time.
Its extremely reliable. With 55% block you would block at least 4 hits out of 5.56 hits in that 10second window 70% of the time. Also how effective it is depends on the length of the boss burst. I've provided the numbers - the math is solid. No my numbers are sound. Yours prove an unimportant point. These are basic lessons that anyone with even cursory knowledge of tanking and healing should know. The fact that you do not - and then decide to debate me about it - is frankly insulting. Lol funny a person who has no clue how the attack table work and did not know that DK mastery does not affect magic damage and then decides to debate me about it is frankly insulting. Actually its not but i thought id mirror your arrogance and hubris back at you. |
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And then we look at a real fight, where players other than the tank can and will be taking damage, often unpredictably (would be nice if everyone was perfect at avoiding avoidable stuff, but...), and then you realize that constant, reliable mitigation has value in that it lets healers devote more resources to keeping the entire party up. There's the mental game, too, of being able to more reliably predict when you need to heal a tank.
In my experience, in fact, wipes are almost never caused by the tank dying but rather too many DPS or healers dropping from tertiary stuff. |
Thats right X. If your dieing to basic melee swings from 1 boss there is 0 reason for you (or possibly the healer) to be in that encounter unless hes on some kind of frenzy or berserk. Its a side grade because it makes burst easier and Total damage go up which is a nerf. |
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30% would be nice. But IMO 30 second cooldowns are just annoying and should be removed. I think this cooldown will be best used at 50-60% health for heals to catch up, or during a frenzy or enrage.
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Can I please have my Holy Shield back from the day when it use to have 8 charges with a 10 second duration on a 8 second c/d where when i blocked an attack it did holy damage + 30% chance to block yes please.
I rest my case thank you |
At that point, it's too late. The cooldown it gives is unreliable at best. I think only one person in this thread has been ignorant enough of the math to miss that point. :) |
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Edited by Larceny on 6/11/11 6:30 AM (PDT)
30% would be nice. But IMO 30 second cooldowns are just annoying and should be removed. I think this cooldown will be best used at 50-60% health for heals to catch up, or during a frenzy or enrage. Insults are the refuge of people with bad arguments who have not thought things through enough. The fact that you don't know how tanks operate (blood shield working on physical damage and 75% HTL uptime HA) and don't understand the combat tables is further proof of that. Once again your math proves nothing of importance. Which you know full well. Thus why you posted in the pally forums where you assumed everyone would agree with you instead of the tank forums where your 75%HTL uptime and other problems would get dissected. |
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Can I please have my Holy Shield back from the day when it use to have 8 charges with a 10 second duration on a 8 second c/d where when i blocked an attack it did holy damage + 30% chance to block yes please. That would be a massive nerf. Do you people even think before you hit the enter key? |
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I don't even know what the current Holy Shield does, and I had to look it up.
I think this change is better. It allows us to time our Holy Shield for a boss' incoming physical attack that will do a lot of damage. The only con is that we have a lot of cooldowns as it is. |
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and how often are these huge, predictable physical attacks incoming? Chimaeron?
It was a completely unnecessary change that I hardly have the keys to support, and anyone who thinks it's going to be great because it will control your damage intake on big events needs to realize that said events do not exist. |
and how often are these huge, predictable physical attacks incoming? Chimaeron? You can also use it for magic attacks. Take Nef for example, every time he crackles use Divine Protection and Holy Shield. DP for the magic and HS for the melee that follows it. |
