Ask The Devs #9 - Tanking (Answers)

90 Human Paladin
13020



And completely gutted the question in the process? What was posted was NOT the question they voted for. They asked why does a specific taunt still miss despite patch notes saying that it shouldn't. Blizzard answered: "They don't miss, we changed that a while ago!"

I thought that Blizz was simply taking stupid questions verbatim, when it turns out that they were taking niche questions, and turning them into stupid questions, which they then provide stupid answers to. You can't even lay the blame for this fiasco on the shoulders of idiot players. It's entirely on Blizzard's lack of professionalism.


Are you 100% sure righteous defense does "miss"... Come to the defense of a friendly target, commanding up to 3 enemies attacking the target to attack the Paladin instead.

Maybe it is a bug? Maybe it is a badly designed talent? Its not a generic AE taunt being that it only works on friendly targets and only UP TO 3 monsters attacking that specific friendly target.

A better question perhaps could be Paladins currently have no reliable way to taunt a group of mobs, warriors/druids have ae shout, DKs have army of the undead, paladins only have RD which can only be used on friendly targets and will only affect monsters currently aggro'd on that target to a max of 3 targets. Are there any plans to address this?


You're missing the point. It's not weather or not righteous defense can miss. It's the fact that not only was "Can taunts not miss?" an inane question that should have been screened at the lowest level, it wasn't even the question that was voted for. The whole process is a sham.
Edited by Dämmerung on 6/8/2011 6:54 PM PDT
90 Troll Warrior
13875
[quote]

As to the quality of life issues I don't play a druid so i cant comment... I find them boring too :p


It's pretty easy for you to simulate. Take charge off your bar and use intercept instead, and spec out of gag order. Then you'll be able to experience the QoL issue questions that were voted for, but not answered.


So to simulate this you want me to experience all the negatives of a class without any of the positives... yeah that seems like it would be a balanced experiment.

I'm not saying druids don't have issues I am sure they do... I got one sitting at 68 I have not been able to finish.

I might be a little off with this comparison but isn't faerie fire a ranged sunder? Should warriors be complaining about that... to me it seems a little silly. A warriors niche is his mobility a druids is his versatility... which on a focused role like tanking is probably not as potent as it could be... you cant stop tanking to heal or rez or CC etc etc like you can stop DPSing.

Then again I am a big advocate of removing the tanking role from druids and having melee dps, ranged dps, healer... 4 roles is a bit much to squeeze into one class.
85 Orc Warrior
0
This has to be a joke. please tell me it is.
if this is not a joke, someone needs to get fired. now.
this is the biggest waste of time i have ever seen.
i used to tank, then you realize in Cata. it sucks. bad.
and the fact you answer pointless questions like this shows you don't care.
and maybe never will, judging by the answers we received that is what it seems like.
please put work into you Dev Q&A, because the entire population of veteran tanks in wow is flaming in rage.
careful of you next step, you do NOT want to set off a tank landmine, otherwise it will blow up in your face.
85 Human Warrior
2735
Every warrior tank needs to have Blood and Thunder, you just rend and Thunderclap and just keep thunderclaping and spreading the Rend to new mobs and refreshing it on the old ones. Iv had a lot of warrior tanks in my group before and about 50% of them don't know what they're supposed to do. Some of those tanks don't even know what thunderclap is.


I think the intial aggro issue is more specifically addressed to the single target raid tanking... off the top of my head the most recent time I have struggled is when tanking a drake on halfus lust gets blown off the bat.. when the drake needs to be repositioned it becomes problematic, especially if SS misses. This is also a problem when trying to reposition Onyxia with over zealous DPS.

Other tanks have offensive cooldowns to use to help in this situation... but the devs have said intial aggro should be a concern so thats the end of that.

Unfortunately a LOT of people don't WAIT for the thunderclap before starting the dps. They'll start going hard as soon as the charge happens. However, it takes us around TWO gcds to get our starting aoe taunt off (because we have to charge in or we have no rage in order to rend/thunder clap, and if we have to heroic throw pull.. we're screwed, unless our shouts aren't on cooldown). Yes, it works well when people wait.. unfortunately, a LOT of dps don't deem to realize that. And while yes, reminding them "Warriors do not have aggro immediately after engaging. Please wait for Thunder clap" SOMETIMES works, it can get quite annoying to have to remind people every time. It makes it annoying when you wanna chain queue... If I have to make a macro to remind people how to group with me because of build in mechanics... Sure, it's possible, but it IS just another hurdle that has to be overcome along with all the other tank hurdles. It's almost just like that last straw that just makes it too much to bother with sometimes.


In the situations you are showing this is a problem with the dps, not the class itself. Buffing initial threat for tanks is essentially nerfing the difficulty of the game as a whole for dpsers, especially since GC said (ages ago during the beta) that they want threat to matter for both tanks and dps.
If dps can't or won't play to the minimum skill cap necessary for their role, then it's not a design error, but a player error. Some dps, like Death Knights and Warriors, have no threat dumps, meaning they should learn to wait for the tank to establish aggro before they go all out. Other dps, like rogues and shaman, have easily maintained threat dumps. If they can't figure out how to use them, then that's their own damn fault.
(<3 wind shear)

I will admit that certain dps classes (basically all plate and some cloth) need to be able to dump threat. (Or dump threat better)
85 Gnome Warrior
5455

... this is a problem with the dps, not the class itself. Buffing initial threat for tanks is essentially nerfing the difficulty of the game as a whole for dpsers, especially since GC said (ages ago during the beta) that they want threat to matter for both tanks and dps.
If dps can't or won't play to the minimum skill cap necessary for their role, then it's not a design error, but a player error.


I agree with this COMPLETELY. But... it's still the reason that I don't tank anymore. It's a real problem. Whether it's a problem with dps, or the tank, or built in "working as intended" mechanics.. it's still a problem. I especially hate how it's EXTREMELY unpredictable. You can get groups that are really good, or.. you can get the idiots that start aoe-ing and attacking lords know what when you battle shout before you even charge. I'll admit I don't know what these situations for other tanks are like.. but for warriors.. it can be disasterous if some idiot pulls everything into melee range before you can charge (therefore requiring several autoattacks before you can use almost ANY ability). Or if they AoE before thunderclap gets off.. and mobs seem to almost.. scatter.

I don't know what kind of change should be made. And whether it should be a change to warriors, or basic game play (maybe something like one of those tip windows "This is your first time grouping with a warrior tank, please be aware that ..." ... I'm sure some other classes/specs could have other relevant, similar tips, such as other tanks, healers, etc), but I feel like if SOMETHING could be done, it would be great, heh.
Edited by Lakaela on 6/8/2011 7:08 PM PDT
90 Troll Warrior
13875
I am not convinced any change should be made... asides from doubling shield slam damage in exchange for less scaling from vengeance.

There is always retaliation (useable in 4.2 in prot stance woot) + challenge shout... yes it has a cooldown, try to restrict the times you will need it, but it is there.
85 Night Elf Warrior
8225
06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
We don’t actually recall many four+ tank fights in Burning Crusade


i do, vanilla too
85 Orc Death Knight
4140
Can you make it so that taunt doesn't miss, just like you did for interrupt abilities? Doesn't feel as though it would be a complete upset to overall balance. – Madmartygan (LA)


Sigh... why do they waste time answering baddies?
85 Gnome Warrior
5455
06/08/2011 07:14 PMPosted by Therealgor
I am not convinced any change should be made


I would be fine if no change was made to warriors directly. But the fact seems to be that people need to LEARN how to group with warrior tanks more so than what I've seen with other tanks. Especially those with instant cast openers (I learned with my mage where if I'm in doubt at ALL, I'll open with pyroblast.. give the tank a full 2.5-3 secs depending on haste buffs to finish getting aggro..).

There seems to be some issues in general of people not knowing how to work WITH others. Especially since blizz took out a majority of the non-dungeon group quests. I'm not sure how it could be fixed.. maybe on level 10, depending on the spec you pick (and available once for any new roll spec you pick on the first creation of the talent tree) there would be some quest that would help people with this... I don't know.. But I find it seems to be a growing trend.

And just to show I think the whole "not knowing how to group with other classes" is more universal than just "OMG gimme insta-aggro on my warrior!" a LOT of people bash me for my AoE on my pyro mage... They'll tank right ontop of something that's CCed, or something similar... and then blame me when one of my procs breaks it (and then I ALSO get blamed for low dps if I hold back on anything that could possibly cause AoE though..). Now, assuming that Blizz wants EVERY spec to be viable and chosen based on preference more than "You HAVE to go _______ spec cause that's all people know how to work with"... There needs to be something, I believe, that will help (new) players once again learn to group with others. Back in Vanilla we had the old level 10- group quests and stuff to help a little with that... Now.. People "perfect" solo-play.. and then assume they can take that RIGHT into dungeons once they hit their desired dungeon farming level...
Community Manager
Among the interesting results of this round of Ask The Devs -

The question about Righteous Defense turned into an investigation of the code around Righteous Defense, and it was found to be bugged.

It was unintended for Righteous Defense to miss, so the bug was tracked down. It is being fixed immediately.
90 Troll Warrior
13875
Well said lakaela, the game definitely needs more in the way of teaching people how they are supposed to work together. Otherwise it just becomes more and more inaccessible as the divide between inexperienced and experienced grows.
85 Human Paladin
6435
Among the interesting results of this round of Ask The Devs -

The question about Righteous Defense turned into an investigation of the code around Righteous Defense, and it was found to be bugged.

It was unintended for Righteous Defense to miss, so the bug was tracked down. It is being fixed immediately.


Well that is good. Although it doesn't make up for the rest of the QA.
90 Draenei Warrior
14070
Among the interesting results of this round of Ask The Devs -

The question about Righteous Defense turned into an investigation of the code around Righteous Defense, and it was found to be bugged.

It was unintended for Righteous Defense to miss, so the bug was tracked down. It is being fixed immediately.
Any chance you can fix the bugged question so it's actually asking what the guy asked? <_< >_>
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Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859

90 Undead Death Knight
9500
06/08/2011 05:58 PMPosted by Nimbosa
CAN WE MAKE IT SO EVERYONE IS CRIT IMMUNE THROUGH TALENTS, IT'S GETTING REALLY HARD TO FIND DEFENSE RATING ON GEAR FOR SOME REASON
85 Human Death Knight
11920

Among the interesting results of this round of Ask The Devs -

The question about Righteous Defense turned into an investigation of the code around Righteous Defense, and it was found to be bugged.

It was unintended for Righteous Defense to miss, so the bug was tracked down. It is being fixed immediately.


I am glad that something good came out of this.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
18045
06/08/2011 05:58 PMPosted by Nimbosa
CAN WE MAKE IT SO EVERYONE IS CRIT IMMUNE THROUGH TALENTS, IT'S GETTING REALLY HARD TO FIND DEFENSE RATING ON GEAR FOR SOME REASON
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12645
Whew, I'm glad all of us unhappy Blood DK's were completely wrong. Thanks for clearing it all up for us. /sarcasm

I think I liked it better when we just thought you were ignoring us, as opposed to going out of your way to ignore us.
Edited by Gødforbid on 6/8/2011 8:04 PM PDT
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