Ask The Devs #9 - Tanking (Answers)

85 Night Elf Warrior
6020
Agility doesn't benefit from Dodge anymore... where did this change convolve from?
90 Human Paladin
0
06/09/2011 02:04 PMPosted by Izzmo
Agility doesn't benefit from Dodge anymore... where did this change convolve from?


They wanted people to stay within the gear designed for them. It's the same reason why they implemented the armor bonuses and took away AP from strength for agi classes.
85 Dwarf Warrior
0
06/09/2011 02:06 PMPosted by Dämmerung
Agility doesn't benefit from Dodge anymore... where did this change convolve from?


They wanted people to stay within the gear designed for them. It's the same reason why they implemented the armor bonuses and took away AP from strength for agi classes.


Mainly so agility cloaks, trinkets, rings, all will stay with classes that use agility as a primary stat.
88 Blood Elf Paladin
6480
Q:Are there any plans to update the leg armor in 4.2 now that the plate tanks receive no dodge from agility? Maybe introduce a new leg armor patch that adds str/stamina, or a mastery/stamina? – Dariok (NA), Fredik (EU-ES)


Q: Can you make it so that taunt doesn't miss, just like you did for interrupt abilities? Doesn't feel as though it would be a complete upset to overall balance. – Madmartygan (LA)


I feel these questions could have been answered more appropriately with an ASCII Picard /facepalm.
85 Human Death Knight
8920
And people wonder why I don't bother tanking anymore on my server. My patience in Blizz has gotten pretty low now because of these stupid amateur questions that u can find out from any skilled/expert tank. Also whoever says that Blood dks r OP really needs to think about this: Blood dks are only considered OP because the person behind that toon knows how to get through situations that would otherwise seem impossible to other people. For god sakes, I could practically tank a random heroic boss by myself. Now if u want to look at this way, think about this: Is it wrong or OP that a blood dk could solo a ZG boss by themselves? I'll leave the answers to u guys to figure out.
85 Human Paladin
8390
A legendary agility weapon? Ew...WTB TANK WEAPON! You could make it a single weapon that "transforms" To what you yourself could use..(Think back to the ICC rings) 1h weapon for war/pally, and 2h weapon for dk/druid. Seems simple enough for me :)
85 Tauren Warrior
8150
Warriors have the lack of versatility problem.

Raid tanking, we have one skill to use to help a party member. Intervene. Takes the next attack for the target and lowers their threat by 10%. If you talent it, you reduce their damage taken by 30% for 6 seconds.

Problem with that is that you have to charge them. This isn't a safe option in 90% of situations. Turning a dragon or a cleaving mob to the party is.. Bad.

Rallying cry could have been useful except it activates last stand cooldown, and doesn't last nearly as long as last stand.

Also, we don't have a party/raid buff like deathknights, druids, or paladins. (Aura, leader of the pack, abom might) We don't have more than one taunt. And only one ranged attack.

Mobility is overrated.
90 Human Paladin
0
Warriors have the lack of versatility problem.

Raid tanking, we have one skill to use to help a party member. Intervene. Takes the next attack for the target and lowers their threat by 10%. If you talent it, you reduce their damage taken by 30% for 6 seconds.

Problem with that is that you have to charge them. This isn't a safe option in 90% of situations. Turning a dragon or a cleaving mob to the party is.. Bad.

Rallying cry could have been useful except it activates last stand cooldown, and doesn't last nearly as long as last stand.

Also, we don't have a party/raid buff like deathknights, druids, or paladins. (Aura, leader of the pack, abom might) We don't have more than one taunt. And only one ranged attack.

Mobility is overrated.


You've got the option of providing either Horn of Winter or Fortitude, and rallying cry lasts longer than Divine Sacrifice does.
100 Draenei Death Knight
15350
You've got to be kidding me! your intentially letting tanks miss, so they have to ativitly seek hit rating at the cost of mitagation.

really starting to hate this game more and more

Don't hate the game; hate the players who can't read with comprehension.
Their answer was that, as a possibility, they -might- introduce changes/mechanics which require tanks to pick up hit, in which case they would buff mitigation to compensate. Remedial reading courses are available at your local institute of higher learning.


And see you apparently don't know how your class works, since if you did and read what he posted you would realize that they think its ok for bear and DKs to loose their primary form of mitigation from missing. Since you know you actually need to land the DS/crit for SD proc's to work.

Reading comprehension ftw indeed.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
2740
What is the main stat that tanks need to stack avoidance, stamina, or mastery and does it differentuates between each class?
85 Undead Death Knight
4385
06/09/2011 04:39 PMPosted by Daroff
What is the main stat that tanks need to stack avoidance, stamina, or mastery and does it differentuates between each class?


Avoidance is dodge and parry.
85 Tauren Warrior
8150

You've got the option of providing either Horn of Winter or Fortitude, and rallying cry lasts longer than Divine Sacrifice does.


There is almost always a priest in the party. Rallying cry health is lost after the duration, and it has a 3 minute cooldown, whereas sacrifice has 2 minutes.
85 Blood Elf Mage
3050
Its beyond my mind that Devs just don't get why we have a huge lack of tanks on Cataclysm.

No cosmetic or secondary change will fix it if you don't attack the first problem: Cataclysm model for tanks isn't fun like it was on LK, period.

Asking the actual tanks may not be the very smart way of finding the problem. Asking the people who played one entire expansion as tank (me and lots of ppl I know) and dropped as soon Cata arrived will help you better.

The LK model was on top of everything FUN. Was FUN to be a tank, even on entrance gear (earlier lvl 80). Ofc it turned a little to easy at max levels, but a little tweak here and there should be enough, now this Cata model isn't fun at all, theere is a huge difference between LK and Cata models.

The challenge isn't the problem, it was challenging on LK sometimes also, doing ICC with a lots of DPS having more gear than the tank was a challenge, now the challenge is reduced to be able to stay alive tanking 3 or 4 mobs, making us the tank feel like we are made by paper, not a strong machine that can handle multiple mobs without being on 20% HP just 4 seconds before the pull.

There is a big difference on the FUN factor when:
LK model: your challenge as tank is to handle 5-8 mobs on ICC or even the 5 mobs plus the other 5 that someone pulled by mistake
Cata model: your challenge is to have a DPS to CC some mob because you can handle only 3 or 4 mobs, and your healer need to be very fast because on the first 2/3 seconds of the fight your procs/whatever will not be up and you will get bellow 30% HP really fast. And if someone pull a pack by mistake, your challenge is to run really fast to not die, otherwise YOU WILL

But to hell with it, why it should be fun, its just a game.

PS: Ofc will always exist players that disagree, but the lack of tanks was never so high like now, so IMHO this is the first reason, as its the reason that I dropped my Kingslayer tank.
Edited by Theburner on 6/9/2011 5:19 PM PDT
100 Tauren Warrior
9050


Overall, we don’t want tanks to have 100% guaranteed threat on a pull, so we don’t want to buff that aspect of Vengeance, but we also don’t want DPS specs to constantly have to throttle the DPS they can deliver midway through a fight, so we have to strike a balance.




I want to abolish world hunger and obesity. However I understand its not practical for me to expect such will be solved by my will alone. If we cant gain strong threat from the start, WE THE TANKS will be blaimed...

thats the nature of all of the tanking/dps qq that exists in wow today and a good portion of the reason tanks wont que for randoms anymore. this is a problem.


Telling dps to hold back dps leads to one result " the tank is bad" .

/gamequit

EDIT: I should also not that this becomes more of a problem the further you progress, because dps are all that much stronger.



Blizzard Knew at the end of wrath that static threat mulitpliers had become overwhelmed, and It was largly indicated that vengeance was the responce to that delima.


However, the problem is still going to exist, and while mid fight MAY be less pressing at the moment, You are more or less forcing warriors into an OFF tank position. Which frankly, is a lot of bs and I have canceled my account as a result of this.


Can I have your stuff?
90 Gnome Mage
15330
You think Blood DK's are not overpowered? How about an example of why they are? A friend and I went into ICC, 10 man raid. He was on his DK, I was on my shadow priest and it was just the 2 of us. We cleared the way to Marrowgar (1 wipe, got 2 of the big guys at once) and then proceeded to attempt to 2 man the boss (Would have completed it, but we came about 240k shy of downing him before the enrage timer). Called in another friend, came on his mage and we proceeded to 3 man marrowgar with NO dedicated healer. How is that not OP'd?
90 Gnome Mage
15330
Its beyond my mind that Devs just don't get why we have a huge lack of tanks on Cataclysm. No cosmetic or secondary change will fix it if you don't attack the first problem: Cataclysm model for tanks isn't fun like it was on LK, period.Asking the actual tanks may not be the very smart way of finding the problem. Asking the people who played one entire expansion as tank (me and lots of ppl I know) and dropped as soon Cata arrived will help you better.The LK model was on top of everything FUN. Was FUN to be a tank, even on entrance gear (earlier lvl 80). Ofc it turned a little to easy at max levels, but a little tweak here and there should be enough, now this Cata model isn't fun at all, theere is a huge difference between LK and Cata models.The challenge isn't the problem, it was challenging on LK sometimes also, doing ICC with a lots of DPS having more gear than the tank was a challenge, now the challenge is reduced to be able to stay alive tanking 3 or 4 mobs, making us the tank feel like we are made by paper, not a strong machine that can handle multiple mobs without being on 20% HP just 4 seconds before the pull.There is a big difference on the FUN factor when:LK model: your challenge as tank is to handle 5-8 mobs on ICC or even the 5 mobs plus the other 5 that someone pulled by mistakeCata model: your challenge is to have a DPS to CC some mob because you can handle only 3 or 4 mobs, and your healer need to be very fast because on the first 2/3 seconds of the fight your procs/whatever will not be up and you will get bellow 30% HP really fast. And if someone pull a pack by mistake, your challenge is to run really fast to not die, otherwise YOU WILLBut to hell with it, why it should be fun, its just a game.

PS: Ofc will always exist players that disagree, but the lack of tanks was never so high like now, so IMHO this is the first reason, as its the reason that I dropped my Kingslayer tank.



Totally agree with this post. I had 3 tanks in WotLK, Pally, druid and DK and was working on a warrior tank as well. I had a lot of fun tanking. Since cata has come out, my druid (was main spec balance and offspec bear) is now a level 85 ilvl 352 bank toon because I play to have fun not to feel as though I'm working another job, My paladin I bring out only if we have a guild tank that can't make it to the raid and the dk, I just can't get into, haven't even finished leveling him because the "fun" factor in tanking is no longer there. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun and tanking is not enjoyable, it's a job and I already have a full time job, I come to WoW to escape the pressures of life not to work and get stressed out about if we have the right make up for a 5 man heroic dungeon to have enough cc's. I don't and won't tank heroics because the mechanics required just to kill trash are no longer any fun.
100 Human Warrior
10155
Concerning DPS survivability on "accidental" pulls...

A: We’re generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.


This was NOT a sufficient answer.

The other day I was in a group with DPS who were constantly pulling ahead of me before I had finished with the previous pull. When I asked that they stop, they mentioned that they could 2 man the dungeon. To be honest, they probably could. But the point is that they were surviving with pulls of 2-3 mobs without my help. And I saw absolutely NO "huge" drain on the healer's mana because the DPS were hardly touched.

It's very frustrating to see this type of thing happen as a tank, and then get this type of answer concerning it. I am not at all happy with this response.

And Atva hasn't even begun to get into Cata dungeons...
Edited by Atva on 6/9/2011 6:13 PM PDT
80 Night Elf Druid
0
I think the ENTIRE vengeance mechanic is counter-intuitive. As a tank you are supposed to build to mitigate damage... But one of your CORE CLASS MECHANICS is based upon taking MORE damage. I think the whole thing should be retooled to work on how much damage you mitigate rather than take. This to me seems more intuitive...
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