Ask The Devs #9 - Tanking (Answers)

85 Orc Death Knight
7620
Dk's the only way they will hear is 2 fold, 1 spec out of blood and stop tanking, 2 cancel your account even if it is only still 1 day after the renew date, it affected their month to month income projection which influences design decisions. This method has worked to force changes before it will work again.
100 Night Elf Rogue
17865
Didn't this sort of thinking cause the need to create CTA for tanks? Here I'll help you. Get a fire mage with high crit, and have him cast a spell. Vengeance helps hold aggro after rotations, and mid fight switches. The intitial aggro has been an issue. Now I've seen you guys actually try to make that easier in the PTR, but I KNOW dps has had to throttle back on more than one occassion for the non elite/0-13 tanks. And that my friends is why CTA is around, right?


Are you REALLY having threat issues more than 10 seconds into a fight? I mean, sure, any DPS can pull threat in the opening 2 seconds just by attacking something other than what you do, but... really?
85 Troll Druid
12075
Why on earth would you answer questions about something that happened in recent patch notes. So many good questions weren't even answered, but you took the time to point out changes you did in recent patches for people that are too lazy to read patch notes or notice it in game for themselves. Bravo.
Also, couldn't you give another class some form of Misdirect/Tricks? I mean you gave mages Bloodlust as an 85 ability, surely you're willing to do something like this, right?
Edited by Slaughterbus on 6/8/2011 11:29 AM PDT
2 Tauren Paladin
0
06/08/2011 11:22 AMPosted by Aglamir
Why do so many people pull out the invalid argument that it's unreasonable to require effort in pursuit of a hobby? What you get out of any activity is a function of what you put into it. This kind of thinking (off-topic, I know) is destroying nonrated Battlegrounds; I'd rather not have it spread to raiding, any more than it already has.

Hey man, I like to build model ships, but because it's a hobby I don't like to put any effort into it. So all my model ships just look like a pile of unpainted toothpicks glued together. I'm very proud of them.
90 Night Elf Druid
17180
Q: Can you make it so that taunt doesn't miss, just like you did for interrupt abilities? Doesn't feel as though it would be a complete upset to overall balance. – Madmartygan (LA)

How did this end up one of the top rated questions by the tanking community? Do most tanks not know this yet? I'm not sure if this indicates a failure in communication from Blizzard or a general lack of knowledge from tanks.

06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin’s Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior’s mobility or a bear druid’s ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter.


First, don't get me wrong: I don't think feral need more raid utility. And I love my paladin and don't really want to see a nerf there. But we're talking about whole different levels of utility.

It is difficult to compare apples to oranges. But I think it's pretty obvious that feral innervate giving 5k mana is not on the same scale as raidwall during Nefarian, the ability to instantly heal the tank on a fight like Chimaeron or the ability to avoid damage and drop debuff stacks on a fight like Halfus (both for self with bubble and other tank via blessing of protection).

Rebirth is a better argument. But considering the number of classes that have the ability now, the limited number of casts per fight and the fact that bears are the only in-combat rezzers that can't always safely cast it while performing their primary role, I have found myself casting it a LOT less. I used to do all kinds of tricks or timings to get someone up. Lately it's almost always 'the {insert other class here} can get it without risking a wipe' or 'my rez is up, but didn't we already use all 3?'

The better argument for feral utility is probably our ability to do more damage in tank gear and spec when we're not taking hits. There aren't a lot of fights lately where the fight only needs that extra tank for a small portion of the fight. But it is powerful to have a tank who can get close to their dps spec during the times they're not taking hits.

Again, I don't think I need something like raid wall. But I don't think it's a valid argument to say feral innervate or rebirth are hard to compare to paladin raid tools. While you can't measure them with numbers, there is a pretty obvious winner when comparing rebirth and feral innervate to raidwall, BoP and LoH in today's raiding landscape.
100 Tauren Warrior
17785
06/08/2011 11:25 AMPosted by Azreluna
Didn't this sort of thinking cause the need to create CTA for tanks? Here I'll help you. Get a fire mage with high crit, and have him cast a spell. Vengeance helps hold aggro after rotations, and mid fight switches. The intitial aggro has been an issue. Now I've seen you guys actually try to make that easier in the PTR, but I KNOW dps has had to throttle back on more than one occassion for the non elite/0-13 tanks. And that my friends is why CTA is around, right?


Are you REALLY having threat issues more than 10 seconds into a fight? I mean, sure, any DPS can pull threat in the opening 2 seconds just by attacking something other than what you do, but... really?


It is possible to happen - adds pop up but the DPS keep nuking on the main boss, your gonna loose aggro. Have a long string of misses/dodge/parries and you have lost aggro, especially when the DPS are riding your ass from the get go.
I'm not saying that everyone is, or just one class, or just on situation, but it is happening sporadically.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
In all honesty, who up-voted a question about taunts missing?
Edited by Dãwn on 6/8/2011 11:33 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
It is possible to happen - adds pop up but the DPS keep nuking on the main boss, your gonna loose aggro. Have a long string of misses/dodge/parries and you have lost aggro, especially when the DPS are riding your ass from the get go.
I'm not saying that everyone is, or just one class, or just on situation, but it is happening sporadically.


More than sporadically in my experience. Impatient dps has actually made me stop doing heroics because of their inability to play like they should.
90 Night Elf Druid
13175
06/08/2011 11:25 AMPosted by Azreluna
Are you REALLY having threat issues more than 10 seconds into a fight? I mean, sure, any DPS can pull threat in the opening 2 seconds just by attacking something other than what you do, but... really?


A crit early in the fight can really mess up your aggro early on. See, the geared dps is hopefully hit capped or close to it. The tanks often aren't. So while they're hitting all the time, and might crit? We have to hope we get just enough aggro off abilities that sometimes miss. And yes, that's exactly what taunts are for, but some folks like to taunt as part of the inititial pull.

Now granted rogues like yourself, and a few other dps classes can tricks of the trade, etc. to help there, but a few classes don't have that. I just put 10 seconds in there as an arbitrary number.
Edited by Verrin on 6/8/2011 11:36 AM PDT
85 Undead Priest
5590
06/08/2011 11:31 AMPosted by Dãwn
In all honesty, who up-voted a question about taunts missing?


Tanks on the Latin American servers, I'm pretty sure that's where it came from.

Which begs the question of maybe there was a translation issue.
Edited by Judiscpriest on 6/8/2011 11:37 AM PDT
85 Undead Mage
9140
I'm a dps and even i think these answers are bad. Taunts missing? leg enchants? 5 tank BC fights? I've never tanked in my life and I can tell these are terrible questions no good tank would seriously ask.
85 Tauren Druid
9460
Q: Protection Paladin is not only the most desired tank because survival abilities for groups and various utilities, but players also generally consider Paladins as an indispensable Class in raids. I know all tanking Classes are being equalized constantly, but survival abilities of Protection Paladins give huge advantages compared to other tanking Classes. Can we expect that other Tanking classes will see more survival abilities for groups in terms of equity? 디아소르테 (KR)

    Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin’s Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior’s mobility or a bear druid’s ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter. They are fundamentally different abilities that have greater or less utility depending on the encounter and your individual raid comp. We don’t want to just hand out a Divine Guardian equivalent to every tank class, just like we don’t think warriors or paladins need the ability to battle rez. It’s a fine line to walk. Homogenization really rankles some players (as it should), but being unable to tank (or heal, or DPS) an encounter because of lack of tools is equally unacceptable to many players.


I felt overall this was a good read, but I have to take major exception to this answer.

Suggesting that a bear tank has as much utility as a prot paladin because he can Innervate is probably one of the most uneducated statements I've ever heard a Blizzard staff member make. Even under 4.1 rules, a feral innervate is utterly worthless. After the 4.2 nerf, moonkin innervate will barely be enough for a single small/efficient heal. Feral innervate will be literally without any use whatsoever.

That is truly an incomprehensible comment.

As for Rebirth, well that's a bit hard to pull off when you are tanking a Heroic mode raid boss. As you correctly point out earlier in the interview, non-tanks tend to die very very fast, and a feral out-of-form is a non tank.

10-man raiding is very difficult for one reason alone - 10-man teams deal with the exact same number of mechanics, and the exactly same frequency of mechanics, as their 25-man counterparts. The difference is that 25 man teams have 2.5x as many cooldowns (as well as guaranteed coverage of all classes / buffs / debuffs) to manage them.

That is what makes an ability like Divine Guardian so powerful. Maybe in the context of a 25-man raid, its just another one of the dozens of raid walls available to trivialize any given raid mechanic. But in 10-man raiding such thing is a rare and precious commodity because we don't have enough raid walls to begin with.

Just because Bears are being used doesn't mean they are fairly balanced.

They bring little to the table.

It seems like Blizzard is making the same mistake with Bears that they've already made with Resto Druids. Resto's asked for utility and not more throughput - in response you gave them an outrageous amount of throughput and they are now known as 'tranq bots' to some - imbalanced throughput doesn't compensate for lack of utility. Now you make the same mistake with Bears - they ask for utility, not more mitigation - and so you given them more mitigation and maintain your stance of zero utility for bears.

All you are doing is setting yourself up for balance problems because you aren't taking the time to think through the situation fully and design some new utility for these specs.
Edited by Jynks on 6/8/2011 11:43 AM PDT
100 Human Death Knight
16490
06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
We would of course compensate tanks for any potential loss of predictable mitigation.


LIE! Outright, bold faced lie. The only way this wouldn't be a lie would be if you changed Death Strike so that it couldn't be parried against raid bosses while tanking in blood presence.

06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
Death knights are a somewhat different style of tank compared to the others. They take significantly more damage than other tanks,


True. Mostly, due to the fact that they have the lowest amount of armor, supported by the fact that they are the only tanking class who's mastery/mitigation can be missed, dodged or parried.

06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
but then heal/shield that extra damage back instead


If they don't get parried.

06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
They also have more personal impact on their own survivability and mitigation than any other tank, by tying much of their performance to Death Strike (and especially optimally timing their Death Strikes). So in the hands of a really skilled player, they can do some amazing things,


Ooooh now i've got you! You admitted it! You know. We know that you know. And now you know that we know you know. It seems the only next logical step is for you to fix it and adjust Death Strike so that bosses can't parry it.
85 Human Warlock
1565
These answers make me not care about any other ask the dev sessions.

They have proven they really just don't care to talk about the real issues. Instead they answer questions about taunts not missing that were changes that went in BEFORE Cata that any good tank knows always. Seriously?! Why do you think the community really gives a hoot about old patch changes that other people should have kept up with.

Give us answers to the tougher questions that people who spend tons of time theory crafting ask that many of us want answers to instead of questions about things from patches long ago. Issues now are important not issues people should have figured out ages ago.
90 Human Paladin
13020
I'm really very dissapointed in these answers blizzard. Way to pick all the softball questions.
87 Night Elf Druid
9815
So according to some people asking the questions: "Tanks have to use threat addons" I say BS. I don't use ANY addons besides DBM and Recount and have no trouble managing threat as a Druid Tank. Also, I don't see Bear Druids as the weakest link in tanking right now. Personally my single target mitigation through 33% dodge and 20.27 Mastery seems to work out great. Druids DO need to crit to activate their Mastery but I sustain a minimum of 43% crit throughout a boss fight with the ability on trinket proc to go up to 55%+. The only thing I'm a bit weak on is Magic Damage much like all other tanks with the exception of DKs. On the other hand... with how my mastery works I can pull large melee groups and live longer than other tanks because of my dodge/absorption rate. Any damage I DO take goes into Vengeance to make my Mastery even better. 115% of 30k Attack Power is a fairly large absorb sheild, and I can keep that up pretty much all the time.
Very interesting... This only applies to the average dps player who has not had a tank and realized its difficulties. So basically newbie tanks.
93 Blood Elf Paladin
11320
06/08/2011 11:41 AMPosted by Dämmerung
I'm really very dissapointed in these answers blizzard. Way to pick all the softball questions.


Seriously.. I'm beyond disappointed. This is such a joke.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]