Ask The Devs #9 - Tanking (Answers)

85 Dwarf Death Knight
4205
I don't mean to sound jingoistic here, but this Q&A just seems to prove that people outside of the US just don't understand the basic fundamental game mechanics or the current leading theorycrafting behind tanking.

Asking about taunt missing? Thinking you need 5 tank spec tanks for the majority of TBC fights? Thinking you have to cap hit/expertise as a tank these days? What is wrong with these people?

... There are plenty of people in America that don't understand the basics of the game; [sarcasm]Even perusing the comments on the page, you'll find plenty of people with good old-fashioned American names, from honest, US servers, who brought up the threat/expertise issue. [/sarcasm] In my experience, the EU server community is more willing to experiment and try new things; take as an example Shaman raiding in vanilla: American servers were convinced that Shamans -had- to be Resto, even after the EU servers proved that a group built around an Enhancement Shaman would put out more dps than any other group composition (including another dps, or a Resto/Elemental Shaman plugged into the group). This was demonstrated with theorycraft and proven by logs, yet the American player base continued to shackle Shamans into their weakest spec (Healing throughput and efficiency were inferior even to a Paladin at the time) right up to the Burning Crusade. Do not even mention Level 40 Mana Potion Tide; you don't wanna go there.
85 Human Warlock
1565
And they wonder why tanks are generally unhappy right now.
90 Dwarf Paladin
12145
06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
A: We’re generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.


Basically, they're saying "DPS pulls aggro, gets smacked but survives, and it's the healer who pays the price."

Why do I have the feeling that if the same exact issue were brought up in the AtD's: Healing they would singing a completely different tune like "We're not happy with the way, it's the healers that are penalized for the DPS pulling aggro on bosses and are obligated to expend mana for their recklessness. We're looking into ways for DPS to suffer a setback for pulling aggro without them dying."?
90 Night Elf Druid
13100
06/08/2011 11:47 AMPosted by Vorna
A: We’re generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.


Basically, they're saying "DPS pulls aggro, gets smacked but survives, and it's the healer who pays the price."

Why do I have the feeling that if the same exact issue were brought up in the AtD's: Healing they would singing a completely different tune like "We're not happy with the way, it's the healers that are penalized for the DPS pulling aggro on bosses and are obligated to expend mana for their recklessness. We're looking into ways for DPS to suffer a setback for pulling aggro without them dying."?


/waits for this very statement

Sounds about right.
85 Human Warlock
1565
06/08/2011 11:47 AMPosted by Vorna
A: We’re generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.


Basically, they're saying "DPS pulls aggro, gets smacked but survives, and it's the healer who pays the price."

Why do I have the feeling that if the same exact issue were brought up in the AtD's: Healing they would singing a completely different tune like "We're not happy with the way, it's the healers that are penalized for the DPS pulling aggro on bosses and are obligated to expend mana for their recklessness. We're looking into ways for DPS to suffer a setback for pulling aggro without them dying."?


You know, a better price would not be 'dps pulls aggro and takes damage that costs the healer'. A better price would be dps pulls aggro, EVERYONE finds out it is the dps' fault for focusing on the wrong thing, etc, and dies instantly without a chance for a taunt OR a heal.

I am not saying dps is always at fault, but there are times it definitely is and the 'punishment' for messing up should not be put on another role's shoulders. Why punish healers or tanks for someone else's mistake, let their mistake scream for themselves.
85 Night Elf Druid
6220

    Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin’s Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior’s mobility or a bear druid’s ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter.



Neither of these are selling points for the bear druid at this point in time. Innervate has been nerfed to the point where it's pretty much not worth casting on anyone else. Since innervate was changed to being based on the mana pool of the caster, a feral druid's innervate is worth about 5k mana, or one semi-expensive heal. While one heal can certainly be the difference between wipe and success, the heal granted by innervate won't land for at least 10 seconds after its required. In 4.2, innervate from any spec will be worth the same 5k (assuming a 100k mana healer). You've made it pretty clear that you'd rather innervate function more like Evocation -- that is, a mana cooldown for the caster, and not a support skill, not even from a resto (read: support) spec.

A bear druid can cast Rebirth during a lull in an encounter, but a Deathknight can cast it anytime, even while still taking hits. If I were going to pick a tank class based on their battle rez utility, I'd take the DK over the druid, especially given that there aren't likely to be that many lulls.

I get that this is all a part of your design strategy and sure, maybe a feral dps shouldn't be able to be a great support class on top of that. But don't keep pretending that those abilities are still a selling point for bear tanks.
Edited by Aliaras on 6/8/2011 11:52 AM PDT
85 Human Death Knight
10860
I SHALL BOIL THIS HERE Q&A DOWN TO 1 QUESTION FOR THE MASSES:


Q: So I guess Paladin tanks will be the preferred tank by a long shot for the present and future?
A: Yup!
60 Night Elf Druid
3850
06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
And in fact we did it back in patch 3.9. Tank classes’ taunts have been unable to miss since then.


I'm pretty sure we never had a patch 3.9.
85 Human Rogue
2310
06/08/2011 09:49 AMPosted by Zophös
Why did people vote for questions based on faulty premises? 5-tank fights in BC? Taunt misses? Come on.

I know. Times like this make me lose what little faith in humanity I have :\


LOL it's alright bro ur gonna be okay :( :(
90 Night Elf Druid
6685
I don't PvE very often anymore, but even I know Divine Guardian is light-years ahead of a 5,000 mana return on Innervate (which you have to shift out to cast)

Infact, they're not even comparable. 5k mana vs. all the mana saved off every healer from a global -%20 damage buff? That wasn't a serious comparison, right?

Come 4.2 Innervate won't even equal one Divine Light or Flash of Light from a Paladin.

As for Rebirth, good luck getting that cast off while a boss slams on you because you left your tank form and can now be hit by crits once again aside from that factor in all the armor you lost.


But the overall worst part in this comparison, Druids have to make sacrifices to do things other tanks can do normally. Shifting out of Bear Form is too detrimental. If you want Feral Tanks to have utility, make it not involve shifting into Caster Form.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
06/08/2011 11:53 AMPosted by Lorinall
And in fact we did it back in patch 3.9. Tank classes’ taunts have been unable to miss since then.


I'm pretty sure we never had a patch 3.9.

I think they meant 4.0. The expansion pre-release patch.
85 Gnome Warrior
8210
Tanks should go on strike until gameplay improves.
90 Human Paladin
13020
06/08/2011 11:57 AMPosted by Viin
Tanks should go on strike until gameplay improves.


The beatings will continue until morale improves.
89 Night Elf Death Knight
3140
06/08/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Kaivax
Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur.


This is helpful as well, however, the too little, too late statement comes to mind.
65 Orc Warrior
560
Fear not Devs, some of us noobs that have not spent 500+ hours in game actually appreciate the info no matter how trivial it seems to others.
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