Leveling needs more thought.

85 Gnome Mage
1705
Let me start off by saying, this is my first character in the game. This entire post is merely an observation on the game from someone who just recently leveled to 80 for the first time.

With that being said, I finally feel like WoW is enjoyable, rather than a grind. I don't mean that 1-79 was absolutely awful, and that I didn't have fun and wanted to quit the game. That is hardly the case. However, the grind from 1-79 lacks any mechanics to make dungeons fun, and the questing itself isn't all that great.

As soon as I hit level 80 and was able to que for Cataclysm dungeons, it's like the game changed for the better. There were actually mechanics you had to follow in dungeons, such as standing in the way of a beam. Now I understand that after someone runs these dungeons several times that you can do it without thinking about it. To me at least, it's still refreshing to have things that must be done specifically to prevent wiping.

This became even more apparent to me last night. I joined a group that was about to run ICC 10 man. Now granted there were several bosses that just involved nuking them as fast as possible, but even the little things like standing in certain spots, or avoiding ice tombs make you feel like there is some thought put in a fight rather than just plowing through bosses like it's nothing. The Lich King fight is honestly the most fun I've had in this game since I started playing. It wasn't necessarily hard, but it was fun.

What I'm getting at is the almost non-existent amount of thought that is required for anything as you level up. I've seen several threads about wanting difficulty or the accessibility for all to complete a raid or dungeon, and while I would argue that difficulty is necessary to keep the fun level up, I think what's more important is a learning curve. Requiring people to learn an appropriate response to boss attack's, movement, etc... should be implemented, even at lower levels. There's no reason why a player in the 50's or 60's shouldn't be having to learn to actually work as a group, instead of just standing there for 30 seconds attacking, until the boss is dead. Yes, more people will wipe. Yes, leveling might take a little bit longer with said wipes. However, you'll learn important things before you get to the current content, and the game becomes more interactive.

This may come across as a rant, but I just feel like there's no reason that the game couldn't have thrown me a little difficulty earlier on. I'm having a blast now that I'm learning boss mechanics, focusing on those while attempting an achievement (Lich King 30 stack of necrotic plague was a little stressful for my first raid), and actually feeling like I accomplished something when I down a boss rather than just "alright, which boss is next".

Maybe this is how the game is supposed to feel. When you get to a higher level you get better game play. Personally, I don't understand why a fraction of this can't be implemented on the journey there.

Just an observation, from someone who's new.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10875
The current incarnation is what happened when Blizzard put more thought into the system, so I'm not sure "more thought" is the answer.
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68 Goblin Warrior
630
The early game teaches little about grouping. Healers can use their most inefficient heals, tanks can leave the casters for last or not bother marking for cc. DPS can aoe away and pull with no consequences.

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9 Human Warrior
0
sad part is, when I tank these wotlk dungeons on my DK, people @!*@* and complain if I just kill more adds than necessary in the dungeon. Blizz is teaching bad habits to horrible noobs, but then again we've had horrible noobs since vanilla... I guess we just have more variety of them.. the newbs that is
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26 Night Elf Mage
180
1k exp is easy on first toon...especially if they did a lot of dungeons, you get an achievement on every completed dungeon now.

Not an indicator that OP is a liear...wow.
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85 Gnome Priest
1675
Calling BS on first character ever. Doing all the ICC achievements the first time you saw it seems fishy unless you were carried in a 25man.
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1 Troll Shaman
0
Please don't make them waste more time redoing old content. How about new stuff for the majority who actually have been playing and leveling for a while?
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85 Goblin Warlock
11945
06/09/2011 09:34 AMPosted by Lexianne
Please don't make them waste more time redoing old content. How about new stuff for the majority who actually have been playing and leveling for a while?


I agree with this. I like how they revamp the old world and hopefully they'll do it to OL sometime in the future but, at the moment I really would like them to come out with more things to do at max level besides raiding.
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90 Undead Mage
3755
Hi Cryogenix:

I kinda think you would've liked the game way back when. Everything was harder, and all of the instances DID take some thought/strategizing, however you want to put it.

To be somewhat specific in regards to your post, in 2004, characters in the 50s and 60s very much DID have to work together as a team to complete an instance.

Although I kinda think you wouldn't've liked the game then, based on what you wrote. Everything took much much longer. Levelling, travelling, tradeskills, instances. All of it.


Bet, eh... yeah, the game has been getting easier and more dumbed-down, continuously, basically since near the end of Vanilla. Based on subscriber numbers since then, this strategy has worked well for Blizzard, and this is apparently what people want.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
5445
Pre-max-level is the least challenging it's ever been in the history of the game, but it has a much smoother flow and better story line. It also goes by really fast (at least until Northrend).
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85 Dwarf Priest
0
I completely agree that 1-80 should be more challenging/engaging. It's dumb that there's such a sudden ramp up in expected performance and causes a lot of issues at 85. The problem though is that having 1-80 be easy is a big selling point for Cataclysm. Blizzard doesn't really want to make it more difficult if that may scare away new customers.

I would actually rather Blizzard works on something like this than endgame content. The disparity between people who already expected a challenge at 85 and those who were blindsided by it causes a huge rift in the community. It's one of the reasons LFD can be such a trial. If the game better prepared people for heroics/raiding then I wouldn't be expected to rescue new people when they unknowingly jump into the deep end of the pool (aka jumping right into heroics).
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85 Human Mage
6450
Each time Blizzard releases a new expansion, the old expansions become obsolete, and the characters overpower it.

Early instances used to have plenty of mechanics that made you stay on your toes, but now you can just power through them. It is what the majority of the players wanted, and it is now the rule.

Now that you are 80, you can have the harder fights, and be ready for the next expansion when the Cata stuff becomes a faceroll to make way for the new stuff.
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06/09/2011 09:09 AMPosted by Cryogenix
Maybe this is how the game is supposed to feel. When you get to a higher level you get better game play. Personally, I don't understand why a fraction of this can't be implemented on the journey there.


All that existed before cataclysm, and guess what? People complained that it took too long to level and run instances, so Blizzard pleased the crowd and, as the movie goes, "So we get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it, well he gets it..."
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16 Worgen Warlock
60
1k exp is easy on first toon...especially if they did a lot of dungeons, you get an achievement on every completed dungeon now.

Not an indicator that OP is a liear...wow.


I will assume you were talking to me.
I am not sure what you mean by "1k exp is easy". I assume from the rest you mean 1k achievement points.
The number of achievement points he has is not the reason I believe he is lying. It is the achievements he has.
For example- all the bank slots. Is it possible he generated that much gold on his own brand new? Sure. Likely? No.
Especially not while he also max'd out Alchemy- WITHOUT herbalism. That means he was buying mats to level- more gold.

My point is this- do not take the easy road to leveling and then complain that leveling is too easy.
This is either not his first toon- as he stated- or he had help. Having help is fine- but, again, it makes it easy.
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85 Gnome Priest
1925
I suggest you make another toon. This time don't run any dungeons at all - only quest. Also don't use any BOA gear. It's clear you leveled primarily through the df. That is fine, but you are really missing out on the joy of exploring the world for the first time and all the great re-vamped quest lines. Give it a try and you might like it.
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85 Gnome Mage
1705
First, I think perhaps what I am trying to say is coming across wrong. I have no problem with the time it takes to level. This isn't about me leveling an alt without heirlooms, or only questing without using dungeon finder. I happen to really like dungeon finder! What this thread is about is the sudden jump from not using any mechanics in a dungeon from 1-79, to suddenly having to use them at 80 and on. I simply think the leveling experience would be more fun, and more beneficial to the player, if enough difficulty was added in the lower level content to make these things necessary. By the time the player became level capped, they would know their class so much better. Mebashyou summed it up pretty well.

To those of you calling me a liar, specifically you Monsled:

How would me lying about this being my first toon directly benefit my thread? Ask yourself that and you'll realize, "No, that wouldn't make any difference." Exactly. Why lie about that?

Furthermore, this is my first toon. I'm sorry if I've completed some achievements that you don't think I should have, or made more gold than some. But for you to say that me having all the bank slots means I'm lying, well that's just downright ridiculous. Let me point this out:

Just because you make X gold per day, doesn't mean that I have to stay at, or below, your daily income. My absolute favorite part of the game is the Auction House. I'm actually fairly good at making money by just buying and reselling.

So if you're going to whine and call me a liar, let me lay out how I've accumulated so much gold at this point. Keep in mind, I have not had any help in this game. The only things you could even remotely call help are the randoms in LFD, or the 9 other people that ran ICC 10 man with me last night. I have never been handed items or gold.

I started out leveling Inscription. I leveled that to 525, made a bunch of Darkmoon cards and Mysterious Fortune Cards, some of which sold, some didn't. During this time I flipped a few Fortune Cards for the hell of it. I managed to flip a 5k card, that 5k paid for my level 70 flying. I then dropped Inscription and picked up Herb/Mining. Leveled them both to around the 400's, and then dropped them. I then leveled up Alchemy. I continue to do my daily transmute of either Truegold or Volatile Air, depending on the current market of my server. I still am selling off Darkmoon cards that haven't sold yet, so that's still steady income for me. I usually buy up all the Truegold on the market that's around 650g or less and I drive the price of Truegold up to 800g for a couple days. This nets me 150g profit per bar that I bought, plus quite a bit more for the bars that I made myself. Not to mention, I drive up prices on Volatile Air, Earth, Fire, and Water every so often. I haven't decided on a final second profession, because at this point it's not my top priority.

I don't claim to be a gold guru, but I've made enough to purchase everything I need without being handed anything. So, I'll take what you said as a compliment.

Thank you, to those of you who provided something worthwhile to this thread rather than finding something about another player to criticize. I suppose that's my only other problem with this game - people are way too caught up in what other people do and say.


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16 Worgen Warlock
60
06/09/2011 04:03 PMPosted by Cryogenix
How would me lying about this being my first toon directly benefit my thread? Ask yourself that and you'll realize, "No, that wouldn't make any difference." Exactly. Why lie about that?

Here is why it matters.
The crux of your post is:
06/09/2011 09:09 AMPosted by Cryogenix
With that being said, I finally feel like WoW is enjoyable, rather than a grind. I don't mean that 1-79 was absolutely awful, and that I didn't have fun and wanted to quit the game. That is hardly the case. However, the grind from 1-79 lacks any mechanics to make dungeons fun, and the questing itself isn't all that great.

You barely did any questing.... How can you make that decision when you did not quest?

As for the rest of your post- a brand new player, with no outside resources and no outside help is going to take a while to level a character. There is plenty to learn, plenty to see.

You do not have the resources (again with no help) to make the money wheel start turning. What I mean by that is- it takes money to make money.
And do I believe you leveled those skills all the way to 525 first then dropped them over and over? Without taking a second profession first? Why would you not keep one of them as your second skill and drop it only when you had to?


06/09/2011 04:03 PMPosted by Cryogenix
What this thread is about is the sudden jump from not using any mechanics in a dungeon from 1-79, to suddenly having to use them at 80 and on. I simply think the leveling experience would be more fun, and more beneficial to the player, if enough difficulty was added in the lower level content to make these things necessary. By the time the player became level capped, they would know their class so much better.

You are talking about content that was realized 4-6 years ago. Once upon a time, these dungeons were a challenge and did theoretically teach people things. Now you have player experience and heirlooms thrown in. If the dungeons were hard enough to give people a challenge in heirloom items, it would be to hard for players without heirloom items.

Finally, I was not criticizing you per say. I was saying that the 1-79 experience is fine for true new players but will be easy for experienced players. I stand by that.
IF you honestly are as new as you claim to be- you need to write a book on making gold. You would make a mint.
Edited by Monsled on 6/9/2011 6:14 PM PDT
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Community Manager
This is a cool discussion. Thanks for starting it. :)


06/09/2011 09:09 AMPosted by Cryogenix
I don't mean that 1-79 was absolutely awful, and that I didn't have fun and wanted to quit the game. That is hardly the case. However, the grind from 1-79 lacks any mechanics to make dungeons fun, and the questing itself isn't all that great.


While I wouldn't say that leveling from 1-79 is totally "grindy" (I actually had and continue to have a lot of fun running through those zones), I can definitely see your argument. I mean, a lot of current dungeon mechanics are fun, right? They make you analyze the world around you and adapt changing scenarios, sort of like a puzzle. At first glance, having that kind of gameplay accompany you all the way from lower level quest zones to end-game dungeon content seems like it'd be amazing. But that's just at first glance. There's a lot to be said for keeping the leveling process as seamless and straightforward as possible.

For a lot of players, the goal of World of Warcraft is to meet some benchmark, things like leveling up, getting gear, increasing their character's potency, and/or defeating end-game raid content. While questing may be enjoyable activity in its own right for some (like you!), there's definitely a portion of the population where it's really more of a means to end -- a way of achieving those other goals more quickly or with greater efficiency -- and that's an important fact for us to keep in mind.

It's not that quests aren't important; on the contrary, they're a critical part of the game, and we'll continue to work towards making them even more epic and fun. It's just that if we make quests too challenging or too complicated, especially during the leveling process, we run the risk of creating situations where players might become frustrated and feel like they're being forced into a style of gameplay that isn't exactly their cup of PvE.

Now, that doesn't mean there isn't some sort of balance that can be struck, where we're able to create quests that evoke the fun of dungeon encounters, but never really reach that point where they become tedious or difficult (we totally hear your feedback on that). It's a matter of appealing to as many players as possible and making sure that they're engaged, but not overwhelmed with over-the-top challenge as they level up -- which can be tricky, especially when you have such a wide variety of playstyles and opinions to consider.

Even so, incorporating more dynamic mechanics into questing and using quests as a teaching method is something we'd like to do for future content. Whether or not we should invest the time and resources into revamping existing content, though...well, that's something that we'd have to weigh very carefully, as it would require us to focus our attention away from creating new things.
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