DW tanking So far.

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97 Dwarf Death Knight
3465
I. General Info


A. Equip


1. Armour
There should be no difference in how equip yourself. DW gains more from hit, but not enough to make it a concern in your gear.

Its starting to seem that DW is more efficient in making a strong avoidance build. If you are looking to go this route the avoidance preset on askmrrobot.com is a great place to start.

2. Weapons
At lower levels looking for a slower main hand to help decrease the difference between 2h and DW strikes. Sadly at this point end game you have no choice in weapon speed.

Pre ZG/ZA Cookies Tenderizer x2 is best for a mastery build. I dont have any research for what might be best for an avoidance build. They are slow and have good stats.

ZG/ZA Bloodlords Protectors are best for an Avoidance build. Either Rentaki’s Soul Slicer or Gurubashi’s Punisher with the haste reforged to mastery for the mastery build.

Raid Mace of Acrid Death


B: Talents


1. Blood Caked Blade v Virulence
http://public.fotki.com/ruryk/wow/wowscrnshot-50913.html#media -BCB Healing
http://public.fotki.com/ruryk/wow/wowscrnshot-50912.html#media -BCB Damage
http://public.fotki.com/ruryk/wow/wowscrnshot-050911.html#media -Virulence Healing
http://public.fotki.com/ruryk/wow/wowscrnshot-50915.html#media -Virulence damage

2. Talents

My current raid comp is lacking the aura from somewhere else so I am running AB might. Beyond that it is more or less the standard set up for disease tanks.


C: Glyphs
Currently there is no glyph that is better for DW that we arent already using in the standard builds.

In my current build I use the DRW glyph to gain more threat.

II. Research so Far


A. Sims


1. EJ Sim:
Results:

Settings in BloodSim are taken from Zarko's excellent thread on tank stats at Tier 11 (World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> What we look like after one tier of raiding) and damage based on wielding 372 weapons.
- 175,685 health, 32.36% avoidance, 46841 armor, 21 mastery
- Boss hits every 2.4 seconds for 110k-120k unmitigated damage
- 100 eight minute fights

Difference in switching from 2H to DW:
- 7.9% less damage dealt
- 9.8% less threat
- 0.1% less damage taken
- 0.7% less damage absorbed
- 1.1% more healed

With those stats I can see no reason, at all, to ever Dual Wield if it results in equal stats. That's the major caveat. All of the simulations I run assume equal stats (except DW uses 3/3 SoB) between both specs. As yet, no one has been able to give me stat data on a properly gemmed and reforged DW tank setup (recognizing the 3% hit from Nerves that no longer needs to be on gear). It's possible that the tradeoff might be worth it in those circumstances, but I have insufficient data to run the numbers for it.


2. Euliat’s Sim
For a comparison using my stats versus 2x Mace of Acrid Death, this is what the results of the average of 500 trials are (LL used i372 gear, but I don't care to figure those numbers out):

Difference in switching from 2H (2/3 SoB) to DW (3/3 SoB) as of 2011-3-29:
- 0.0% more damage dealt
- 2.9% less threat
- 0.6% less damage taken
- 0.5% less damage absorbed
- 0.2% more healed

None of the default rotation settings were changed, which could change these values. It doesn't appear that BloodSim was designed originally to support DW, which could also change what you'd see in reality.
Edited by Ruryk on 7/7/2011 12:13 PM PDT
97 Dwarf Death Knight
3465
B. Anecdotal


1.For
Eflow:”There's really .. no .. difference. DW is not the reason anyone would fail. All of our 1st kills except cho'gall and al'akir i tanked as dw.”

2. Against
Komrimino: “Just did Heroic Cho'gall, Twin D's, and Council, no threat problems really, but DPS was way lower then wanted. I did switch to a 2H for council last phase though, DPS matters there. Currently sitting Cho'gall atm, prob Sin too, we'll see. I'll post the logs once raid is done.

Thing I did notice, you do need hit since all your threat is Rune Strike. Why it kinda works since you get 3% just from talents.

It works, but it feels lacking atm. So far my opinion is stick to 2H.

Also, it's damned hard to juke death runes as DW. You can't hold RP waiting for your 1 blood rune to pop to RS to get D/U/F runes. You have to RS on Cooldown.”


C. WoL

1. 2h
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jo4gqsc9kvymplsl/sum/damageDone/?s=2445&e=2932
Blood Bath and Beyond Vertebreaker tanking BWD 10 ilevel 356 : http://worldoflogs.com/reports/sb16zusr40uhpzgh/
Tranquility- Leanidas 361 ilevel BWD 10 : http://worldoflogs.com/reports/m951ujyizxkm5b28/

2. DW
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-37vdravr4h48m8wh/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xrq90ur4gozunzx2/
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-r7dccs68eb3l3g32/

D. Strike Damage Calculations

1. Libretto
It's a lot more than 14%.
I hit a dummy for a few minutes in the gear I have on now, but with no FC runeforges, to demonstrate. I have a 372 2H and dual 372 1Hs.

2H DS = ~10.5-12.5K
1H DS = 7.8-9.2K

2H RS = 7.8-9.5K
1H RS = 5.4-6.5K

The big one is

2H HS (2 diseases) = 10.2-11.8K
1H HS (2 diseases) = 6.5-7.5K

That's with no FC or other buffs aside from horn. I ignored partially blocked hits.

Vengeance will come into play a bit to equalize those numbers slightly, but it's still going to be a big gap, on the order of 20% damage difference for strikes. But how much difference does vengeance make?

Base AP w/horn 12015, rune strike bonus damage 1802
Same numbers, adding on 15000 AP from vengeance (which is a ludicrous amount), bonus damage 4051

Since both 2H and 1H will get about the same bonus damage, the gap is narrowed slightly.

You're also dropping some strength and stam. Not a lot, but about 1.5% of each. The stam reduction affects vengeance slightly. About a 2% overall threat drop, which eats up a lot of the NoCS benefit.

Overall you're losing at least 15% if not more damage/threat by playing 1H. Don't need sims to tell us this. Yeah, the EJ numbers are wrong - the loss in damage/threat is significantly worse than them. So you're losing ~80 stam and 15% damage/threat by playing DW, and gaining absolutely nothing. Sounds like equipping a Lovely Black Dress to tank Cho'gall to me.
Edited by Ruryk on 6/27/2011 9:38 AM PDT
97 Dwarf Death Knight
3465
III Avoidance Build

I will be posting the new logs and what not here to show what has been going on since I changed to an avoidance build.

11Jun2011 BWD: Magmaw and ODS Down: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5dfxjeco27gmcnuf/ equipped ilevel 351

26Jun2011 BWD: Magmaw and ODS Down: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4todjb7c77dihkeh/ equipped ilevel 353


IV Original Thread
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2228229194

V Progression 5/12
Edited by Ruryk on 6/27/2011 10:53 AM PDT
85 Draenei Death Knight
2590
This is just a very bad idea. There will be no good to come out of this thread in the very many pages it will no doubt generate like other threads that have talked about this.
97 Dwarf Death Knight
3465
The last thread is where most of the numbers and what not came from. It was mostly constructive. I am hoping that having it all in one place will help lessen the amount of posts we get on DW tanking.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12905
06/10/2011 06:05 PMPosted by Ruryk
The last thread is where most of the numbers and what not came from. It was mostly constructive. I am hoping that having it all in one place will help lessen the amount of posts we get on DW tanking.

it wont seeing as nobody who makes those kinds of threads reads the stickies specifically named for most of the things that they ask
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12905
bind everything on your keyboard to eiether howling blast obliterate or frost strike then proceed to faceroll on keyboard

at 85 this should net you at least 13k dps
Edited by Kusari on 6/10/2011 6:40 PM PDT
85 Orc Death Knight
9980
06/10/2011 06:43 PMPosted by Valvak
I haven't played in awhile, and I'm wondering, since my blood runes are permanent death runes, should I still be using blood strike?


nope.
97 Dwarf Death Knight
3465
Dropped Magmaw and ODS. No issues throughout the evening, as far as threat or survivability. Maloriak got down under 10% then enraged. No one was removing the healing as quickly as it needed to be.

Logs are in the guide itself under avoidance. My Death Strike numbers are still really low and so is my blood shield uptime. Which means I am making my healers work really hard. They arent complaining though so I dont know what the deal is.
06/10/2011 08:55 AMPosted by Ruryk
0.1% less damage taken


Obviously worth the extra work to obtain.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12240
*sigh* Why did you come back? I was glad to see the DW thread die... Nothing good will ever come of this and all you do is hurt your raid with how incredibly subpar and bad you are. Though, judging by your progression and what you've said of your group it really isn't amazing anyways.
63 Orc Death Knight
650
0.6% less damage taken


Obviously worth the extra work to obtain.
97 Dwarf Death Knight
3465
06/11/2011 09:31 PMPosted by Zane
*sigh* Why did you come back? I was glad to see the DW thread die... Nothing good will ever come of this and all you do is hurt your raid with how incredibly subpar and bad you are. Though, judging by your progression and what you've said of your group it really isn't amazing anyways.


I said I would once I started raiding again. So here I am. IRL had got me to busy to play for a couple weeks. Got some more guild members guild so that the raids are less pug and more guild run, and its helped a good bit in our running of ZA/ZG and we finally progressed some through BWD.

The reason for coming back is to put numbers up beside the sim. If I am doing similar to a 2h tank, and I am terribad; a good player that wants to use the style should see no difference between the two.

Last nights raid had players doing high damage and still there was no threat issue. Basically its exactly what Euliat said. In normals there shouldnt be any issue. As I get further along I will post heroics(when I get there) to get more fact and less theory.
97 Dwarf Death Knight
3465
Ok so I was looking around on world of logs. Found another dk on my server that ran BWD recently and is very close to me in ilevel(only 5pts difference). I posted the link under the 2h logs.

ODS:
DPS
Vertebreaker: 8144 Ruryk 6988
HPS
Vertebreaker: 7888 Ruryk 9310
Overhealing
Vertebreaker:17.6% Ruryk: 22.8%
Damage Taken Per Second
Vertebreaker: 11668 Ruryk 11073

The biggest difference is in damage which is the place he out gears me(359 weapon v 2x 353 weapons), and the place where all the math says DW should be behind anyway.
Percentage differences
DPS: 15% in favour of 2h
Healing: 16% in favour of DW
Damage Taken: 5.1% in favour of DW

Even taking into consideration how much of my healing was over healing there is a huge benefit in DW for that. I also took less damage.
Edited by Ruryk on 6/12/2011 6:10 AM PDT
87 Tauren Death Knight
8840
I don't speak math what does this mean?
97 Dwarf Death Knight
3465
It doesnt mean to much since it is only one example, but it shows that there is a decent gain in healing and a decrease in damage taken. Ill keep running more and looking for more DKs to compare stats with as time goes on.

Since the main loss has always been stated as a damage one I am desperately wanting to get 359 weapons to see where DW dps stands in comparison. I dont think it will make up the 15% difference seen in that example, but id like to see how close it gets.
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