Azjol-Nerub's State and Future

100 Undead Priest
17125
06/11/2011 08:29 AMPosted by Taurah
Ora, why you so defensive when Kross is doing the same thing and showing the same exact results as Jade?


Because he's not.

He is counting the number of times someone is over 80% and not the average %... This is a very different number.

He is also hiding his numbers. If you are going to show something like, show proof. Put up a google speadsheet (because I honestly doubt some of his numbers).

Shard's average for a month isn't even a C. It's a D. There are only 3 people above 80%. 6 at 70% and above. The rest average at 60% and below. You can barely count Serrat, as he only attended one boss for one raid. So I won't count him in this.


And we are getting kills at a pretty solid rate given how little we raid. We didn't even start 25's until January 13th.

My issue with Jade is his 80% marker. I've showed how skewed things can get towards the the limit (IE it's harder to approach 100% and even harder to pass it). I've showed that even top guilds have a multitude of players that don't reach this 80% marker (even if they had many more over it... and by a lot!).

I'm not delusional when things are holding us back. I know exactly what they are... and I can promise you that right now our issue isn't reaching 80%, it is in fact trying to get our raid to stay connected to the internet (this has been a HUGE issue for us since 4.0.6) and learning new mechanics.
Edited by Poena on 6/11/2011 2:07 PM PDT
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86 Goblin Priest
7975
Firstly, I showed my spreadsheet in the spirit of open information with the hopes someone may find it useful for their own purposes.

They aren't the same results. One is a weighted average over the course of 4 weeks and one is a mode pooling 80+ kills over a 4 week time period. They are different statistics and tell different stories.

When discussing your 8 "good" vs 17 "bad", you're disregarding that my sheet is only dps. No healers and no tanks are represented there - unless they spec'd dps for a fight. Also, about killora, head back to previous months and you'll see he's actually fantastic. Unless of course you would like to take information out of context to prove a point. In which case, don't.

06/10/2011 05:07 PMPosted by Poena
My plan is to complete as much content as possible while not requiring attendance and only raiding a very minimal amount (7.5 hours a week).


Just thought I'd throw that out there again. We do a good job with a revolving roster. We're happy to be where we are, <Infusion>'s members have seemed to say the same thing. We appreciate the "let's get better" attitude but could do with just a tad less condescension.
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100 Draenei Mage
12500
06/10/2011 05:16 PMPosted by Taurah
with a guild who raids 10.5 hours per week


06/10/2011 05:16 PMPosted by Taurah
I have only ever been a part of 3 day a week guilds


3.5 hours a day would just piss me off. I must say, just rounding it to an even hour makes it so much better. If it were 3 hours, or 4 hours that would be cool. But 3.5, that's just weird.

Yeah, I read most of this thread (backwards for amusement) and this is what I've taken from it.

Oh...and you really should look more into the few 'non-gimmick' encounters as opposed to the whole tier. You are never going to rank on Nef if you don't get the buff often. I'm pretty sure mages are incapable of ranking on Cho'gall unless they get full corruption asap. Omnitron defines gimmick. Magmaw, people can inflate by kiting adds. Maloriak can be good or bad depending on how well your AoE goes. Council can be a little gimmicky depending on how you use the debuffs. Halfus, like someone mentioned, can be done differently be dps; that and depending on the class it's severely inflated on WoL due to the way the fight used to work.

Yes...there are other gimmicks but not all of them are really worth mentioning. I only mentioned Council because I've had a pull a long time ago where my mirrors did about 800k dmg because of the debuff. lol.

Just thinking back to ICC, since it was the only tier I did during its relevance before now, the only real gimmick fight I can think of was BQL. Though yes there was the obvious 30% thing, everyone had that at all times so it really doesn't qualify.
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85 Troll Hunter
6455
He is counting the number of times someone is over 80% and not the average %... This is a very different number.


Yes. It is a very different number. If someone is over 80% they are performing their job for the fight and the entire raid has done the encounter well. Barring interrupts because that would not show in DPS unless the interrupt somehow made the fight longer. Only counting 80%+'s isn't really going to show you anything except that, A.) They have gone to a lot of raids, or B.) They haven't gone to a lot of raids and have just played well. That is, people lower on my list that I didn't bother to post actually have better ratios because they performed better more often for what they attended. Of course, if you missed some raids, your ratio automatically went down a bit on my list because I wasn't too keen on finding out anyone's particular performance as people seem to be thinking but more their reliability. That is, if you were 'reliable' enough to at least do 80% at the end of the 4.1 tier while being at the majority of the raids, the chances are you're on the first page. Well, if your guild was raiding a lot. There are numerous good players who aren't on that just because of their attendance or lack of WoL.

Also, Thatius, Pv, I didn't count any tanks because judging tanks by WoL dps % limit isn't the best way to judge a tank. Or offtank. So if the class said Protection or Feral/Bear chances are I don't know your name since I skipped right over it without registering it to memory. I did write them down, though! And then I would be like, is this a tank? Or is this not a tank? And sometimes they would be a tank and sometimes they wouldn't be a tank, and I'd be all, so are they the offtank, or are they some poor sap? It was all very confusing for someone of such low intellectual wit as myself.

However, anyway, they're also very similar numbers. The average % of all your %'s is going to include every time someone is over 80% and below, then divide them by how many raids they were present at. What you get from that number is knowing how many times they, personally, get over 80% when they are actually there. So, basically, for someone to be below 70%, they are not carrying their weight the majority of the time present. That's just what it says. I wasn't interested in how any one individual person was playing so much as taking individuals and comparing them to how many bosses their guild had done. My number is high because LtoW has been clearing more bosses the past month while other guilds were working on hardmodes and clearing up to 10-20 less bosses. My ratio, however, is that good because I was at most of the raids and doing 80% more than 70% of the time. Actually, I was extremely disappointed to see myself on the top even for ratio and thought on numerous occasions to take it off. But then I figured I wouldn't get people like Thatius in my thread so I let it be. Unfortunately, since it's done on boss kills, someone who missed a clear night would have a disadvantage for their ratio. But it was still of interest to me because my list was including average attendance factors.

You guys are complaining that I didn't make a list about the guilds on both alliance and horde accurate enough because I didn't do averages for every individual person only for the raids they were present at for all their %'s. You realize this? Tell you what -- YOU can do that. By all means. I'm not going to do that. I did that for my guild and then I did what I did here for my guild and I decided to see if my expectations were set too high by doing it for the rest of the server. Of course, my expectations weren't too high because I'm just such a nice guy but there were some surprises. Those surprises are why there are 10's and 25's and normals and heroics. Maybe I'm the only person in existence who knows what a reliable individual is. Sure, maybe some of those 10 man normal people who were getting 80s actually suck at mechanics and would stand in Maloriaks black sludge of doom. I can't tell you that and you can't tell me that through their WoL. Or maybe you can, if you take the time to go through their survivability and cause of deaths.

Here's my numbers, Ora, though I don't know of what use they will be to you.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OPutf4eZQD8ygzpJRdrjIyp7HVkw1A2uOTQJoDuRDeU/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CKrm9a8B
Edited by Jademcian on 6/11/2011 3:58 PM PDT
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85 Troll Hunter
6455

If you think this will change azjol, you're more ignorant than I thought Jade. All you're doing it trying to stroke your epeen because no one else will because we see it how it is.


Really? It's already changed azjol, actually!

Just a week ago we didn't discuss such things as raid performance and why we're behind the rest of the servers because we, as a server, have always cliqued and hung out with our friends.

And I've also proven that we aren't all brainless wandering swines because we actually will talk about such things! I was half afraid that my thread wouldn't get responses, so I made sure it sounded like I was calling people out from the high horse. Even though technically my list doesn't truly show performance, just some good players who are at most of their raids. Now, if I made a list of true performance .... Oh dear. But I was counting on you guys being obsessed with performance. Thank god for that.

Is that what you see as 'how it is'? Or are you 'trolling me'?

I'm going to hope that everybody is because they're too busy complaining about how it doesn't accurately display individual performance, insinuating that I'm insinuating I'm better than they are, and overall generally getting personally insulted. Light be good it's an act.
Edited by Jademcian on 6/11/2011 4:00 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
10110
06/11/2011 10:54 AMPosted by Kross
When discussing your 8 "good" vs 17 "bad", you're disregarding that my sheet is only dps. No healers and no tanks are represented there - unless they spec'd dps for a fight. Also, about killora, head back to previous months and you'll see he's actually fantastic. Unless of course you would like to take information out of context to prove a point. In which case, don't.

I'm allowed to mock Killora, because he has an E-crush on Jade.

Also:
If in a single raid you had all 8 people performing well, or at least acceptably well, you'd still have 17 people bringing the entire raid down. Don't tell me that 17 or more players of your raid, at any given time, are constantly disconnecting and/or are playing from Commodore 64's.

I'll be fair and assume there are 9 other dps in the raid, rather then 17. I'll also assume that your 8 good players are also present in the raid. That means over half of your DPS force is only performing 60%~. That might be okay, if your 8 players were all 80-90% averagers. They're not. Only two of them are. That is not enough to offset the 9 people at 60%~.

Please read an entire post before you start quoting it. I specifically covered healers and tanks.

06/11/2011 09:46 AMPosted by Thatius
However, you always seem so...condescending towards...everyone. I realize this isn't without place, but stop being such a negative nancy!

If you grow a thicker skin, you realize that things are blunt, rather than condescending. There is a difference between the two. I don't think I'm quite so stellar of a player myself. I've also said multiple times that there are great players on this server. I love selective reading.

06/11/2011 03:08 PMPosted by Decix
This has been brought up many times since I've joined Azjol, but do you honestly think a super group on azjol if you took the "A" players based on these averaged performances would work well together?

I've not a single time mentioned this or anything even remotely similar to it. I've never mentioned leaving guilds, joining guilds, merging guilds, or anything. At all. Ever. Don't quote me and say something directly under the quote if it isn't directed towards me. I don't think anyone should or needs to leave any guilds. I think only that the under performing people should take a little time out and recognize the room for improvement they have.

06/11/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Glacios
3.5 hours a day would just piss me off. I must say, just rounding it to an even hour makes it so much better. If it were 3 hours, or 4 hours that would be cool. But 3.5, that's just weird.

I thought so too at first, but truthfully, you don't even notice.

06/11/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Glacios
Oh...and you really should look more into the few 'non-gimmick' encounters as opposed to the whole tier.

More often than not most people of your class are doing the very same thing you are doing when it its under 100%. If it's over 100, people are using "gimmicks" such as staying glued to Halfus. However, underneath the 100% (rank 200), people are doing the very same thing you are doing during the encounter. e.g. interrupting.

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85 Worgen Druid
10110
Funny you talk about trying to better azjol, when you're just being condescending.

Congrats you've killed sinestra and pull more then the "80%+" good average. Does this actually make you feel warm and fuzzy inside? This again goes back to the statement I made earlier. IF your brain is being that dragged down by raiding with <Shard> (No offense guys) or Inf (again no offense) or ANY other guild on azjol (you guys should take offense to this...) move to better pastures where everyone consistently pulls the 90+ where you feel you should be, problem solved and less pompousness that states its trying to help, when it does nothing of the sort.

Again, don't quote me and then not respond to me but also start responding to me at the same time. I've never mentioned "bettering" Azjol-Nerub. I'm not the one who made any spreadsheets or parsed combat logs. I don't raid with Infusion or Shard, and I barely raid with LToW due to work and my main raids. If my brain were being "dragged down" by doing raids on my alt with my boyfriends guild, then I'd have much larger issues at hand. My brain isn't dragged down, and I already raid on "greener pastures" on my main. I'm simply shamed to see such potential going to waste, and seeing so many sub-par people bad mouth each other as if they've got any room to speak. I've been on this server since December 2004. I know the people and the guilds here. You don't need to give me a lecture or a lesson on it.

He is counting the number of times someone is over 80% and not the average %... This is a very different number.

He is also hiding his numbers. If you are going to show something like, show proof. Put up a google speadsheet (because I honestly doubt some of his numbers).

Yes. It is a different number. The net result and purpose is exactly the same. Jade hid no numbers. The ratios weren't exactly difficult to maintain and there wasn't exactly rocket science involved in order to reach the numbers. If you honestly doubt his numbers go to WoL and see it yourself.

06/11/2011 10:52 AMPosted by Poena
And we are getting kills at a pretty solid rate given how little we raid. We didn't even start 25's until January 13th.

You raid 8.5 hours per week, not 7.5, unless your website has inaccurate times. You are progressing at a below average rate.

06/11/2011 10:52 AMPosted by Poena
I'm not delusional when things are holding us back. I know exactly what they are... and I can promise you that right now our issue isn't reaching 80%, it is in fact trying to get our raid to stay connected to the internet (this has been a HUGE issue for us since 4.0.6) and learning new mechanics.

Like I said in my other post, if the 9 other dps in your raid that average 60% or below can't stay connected for long enough to average at least 70% (you said Kross has connection issues, yet he has the highest average in the guild. Clearly connection is not quite so detrimental), then you need to seriously reconsider your roster.

06/11/2011 10:54 AMPosted by Kross
We appreciate the "let's get better" attitude but could do with just a tad less condescension.

Again, grow thicker skins and you'll realize that it simply lacks a sugar coating rather than being truly condescending.
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100 Undead Priest
17125
06/11/2011 05:02 PMPosted by Taurah
Again, grow thicker skins and you'll realize that it simply lacks a sugar coating rather than being truly condescending.


When several people have an issue with you... and no one but your boyfriend sides with you... could it be possible the issue is actually... gasp... you? You are clearly trolling and clearly trying to get a rise out of people with statements like :

06/11/2011 05:02 PMPosted by Taurah
You are progressing at a below average rate.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/average
http://www.wowprogress.com/

H: Magmaw: 9200 (15.13%)
H: Maloriak: 9175 (15.09%)
H: Atramedes: 11525 (18.96%)
H: Chimaeron: 11734 (19.30%)
H: Halfus Wyrmbreaker: 18591 (30.58%)

Being at the top 15% of raiders puts us well above the average. Honestly. Just stop if these are the kind of things you are going to bring to the table... "below average != top 15%"


06/11/2011 05:02 PMPosted by Taurah
then you need to seriously reconsider your roster.


Why because you told me too? Sorry, I don't just leave people hanging because they can't get me 13/13 while it's current. People have stuck with my guild while it had issues, I certainly will not boot them just because 4.0.6 cause issues with their ability to stay connected.


below average

Because unless you are 80% of ranking you are below average? There is no way you can look at that term "average" and apply it to the math being represented here and say that people who fall below said number are average.

You want average?
http://www.wowprogress.com/
Cho'gall - A guild 54.42% of guilds have killed (As close to average as possible)

The rank minimum for an Average S.priest
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Bastion_of_Twilight/Cho%27gall/25N/Shadow_Priest/?page=5
25,136 DPS At the moment

The average DPS of a Shadow Priest on Cho'gall (of all parses in the last 2 weeks):
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Cho%27gall/25N/all/14/60/default/#100
17,854.5

Or
71.03% of ranking

There is your average for you. The average progression fight for all guilds. The average DPS for 1 class for said fight and what said average is in terms to minimally rank.

People can be bad. Just on their own time without being bad around 24/9 other people!


Ya, that's not condescending

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/condescending

Wait, yes it is.

Azjol-nerub is one of the worst servers

http://www.wowprogress.com/realms/rank/us
We're ranked 114 out of 241

That's actually above average :P

edit: the point is that the server is one of the absolute worst when it comes to progression because people use friends, family, or casual as an excuse to not even be average compared to every other player doing the same content. Like I said, enjoying who you raid with, and raiding few hours does not give you some kind of -30% debuff.


Absolute worst would be 241 US... We are above the average... quite a long range from the absolute worst.

Why would you say this... unless you were trolling?



06/11/2011 05:02 PMPosted by Taurah
You raid 8.5 hours per week, not 7.5, unless your website has inaccurate times.


The first 15min are invites, while we let people get home from work, shovel food down their faces and get ready to raid. We almost never have a first pull before 7:30 server. Even if you counted those 15min as "raiding", you'd still put us at 8hr 15min...
I'm going to stick with our 7.5. We're casual. We know people will be late (I am occasionally late thanks to the joys of BART and commuting from the City as well as a job that doesn't always let me leave on time)... and so we start invites early!
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86 Goblin Priest
7975
06/11/2011 05:01 PMPosted by Taurah
I'm allowed to mock Killora, because he has an E-crush on Jade.


Granted.


06/11/2011 05:01 PMPosted by Taurah
Please read an entire post before you start quoting it. I specifically covered healers and tanks.


Eep, I did read your post. Mis-read it apparently. My apologies.
Edited by Kross on 6/11/2011 6:00 PM PDT
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85 Troll Hunter
6455
Don't get sucked into Taurahs adjectives. She exaggerates things because she does so in her mind. She transferred for a reason - Because she values good play. She used to be here, on A-N, and was a good player. Just like Phracture, who used to be in LtoW, transferred for the same reason.

The difference with this server is that this server seems to think that because we are poorer performers we are better friends. This is absolutely incorrect. You can go to a different server and actually find better players and better people who are friendlier and more enjoyable to play with. In Infusions case, most of their players are real life friends. Of course they're going to play together. In actuality, most of their best players is that real life core.


http://www.wowprogress.com/realms/rank/us
We're ranked 114 out of 241

That's actually above average :P


That is below average. 114 / 241 = 47.3%
While it's more or less exactly average, it is still below average. However, last expansion Azjol-Nerub was a high population server. Now it is apparently a medium population server (can't imagine why) so it is perfectly understandable why we would be unable to compete with the top servers progression. Of course, there are some new servers that value their play a bit more and are in the top servers progression, but that's different again.

80% is a very lenient number. Do not defend people who do not do 80% of kills for a month, unless that month is entirely done with new people and it's relearning the fights every time. You cannot look at the 80% number for only one week. One week might be new fights. One week might be a bad week for everyone. Every boss needs to die for it to even be useful, and if you're not doing some fights on normal then you're not getting every boss to die because this server is not 12/13.

70% is more acceptable in heroics if you're not geared at an ilevel of 370. If you are, then 80% is the number that says you're a good player. You can still defeat the boss if everyone is at 60% and the mechanics are nailed perfectly. The shorter the fight, the easier the fight -- everybody has known this since Vanilla. Don't defend it anymore.

80% is the acceptable number for regulars because chances are you are geared for it, like someone else on the first page said.

Doing 60-70% in heroics doesn't mean you're a bad player. Nor does it mean you're a good player. Do 80% in all content for most of the bosses and then you are a good player. That's it.

Out of morbid curiousity, I went to Phractures parses and armory. His armory is picture perfect. He's reforging for as much crit as possible without dropping below 11% haste (though this is hard to do with a 10% haste buff), and he's valuing haste over mastery. He has his 4pc tier and has the Chimera glyph. He's arcane setup. He has an ilevel of 372. If he was a good player, he would be 80% on all fights most of the time. He was.
That's a good player. One who left because there wasn't anywhere for him to raid here. Not one place. Our average player is below average, and that's all there is to it. That's how this server is.

Keep making this about good and bad so I can get to page 10. Also I want more posts than views. We can go back and forth about being good and bad for a while.
Edited by Jademcian on 6/11/2011 6:27 PM PDT
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86 Goblin Priest
7975
06/11/2011 06:11 PMPosted by Jademcian
That is below average. 114 / 241 = 47.3%


That means above average. 47.3rd percentile. That means we're above 52.7%. Think about that Jade. 114 ... 241. If you were the number 1 realm you would be 1/241 = .004% and if you were the bottom realm you would be 241/241 = 100%.
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85 Troll Hunter
6455
06/11/2011 06:35 PMPosted by Kross
If you were the number 1 realm you would be 1/241 = .004% and if you were the bottom realm you would be 241/241 = 100%.

Haha, derp. I was thinking about math quizzes.
WE NEED TO BEAT ALL 241 ANSWERS.

Either way, given the proximity of its placing to 50% and the nature/newness of some servers I'd give a buffering zone between below average and above average, whereby both a server at 53% and 47% would be in the buffer zone. I would say 55-45 at the least, so that section in the middle is average.

But we've more or less all concluded that we're average. Except taurah, who wants to stress that we're average, and therefore calls us less than average.
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85 Worgen Druid
10110
Absolute worst would be 241 US... We are above the average... quite a long range from the absolute worst.

Why would you say this... unless you were trolling?

Ya, that's not condescending

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/condescending

Wait, yes it is.

06/10/2011 07:18 PMPosted by Taurah
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euphemism

There's a difference between being condescending, trolling, and purposefully exaggerating. I could care less about getting rises out of people.

06/11/2011 05:49 PMPosted by Poena
I certainly will not boot them just because 4.0.6 cause issues with their ability to stay connected.

This is pure crap and you know it. 4.0.6 has no inert issues with connectivity.

H: Magmaw: 9200 (15.13%)
H: Maloriak: 9175 (15.09%)
H: Atramedes: 11525 (18.96%)
H: Chimaeron: 11734 (19.30%)
H: Halfus Wyrmbreaker: 18591 (30.58%)

Uh.

H: Magmaw (25): 993 (31.82%)
H: Maloriak (25): 876 (28.07%)
H: Atramedes (25): 978 (31.34%)
H: Chimaeron (25): 1223 (39.19%)
H: Halfus Wyrmbreaker (25): 1553 (49.76%)

There are 1588 guilds in the US at at least 1/13 HM. You're at 53%, almost exactly average. A far cry from top 15%. Your pace is below average.

Edit: I'll be nice and also show you the world rankings for 25. I posted the US ones. Don't list the rankings for tier 11 general for the world simply because it gives you a prettier number.

H: Magmaw (25): 2894 (34.06%)
H: Maloriak (25): 2615 (30.78%)
H: Atramedes (25): 2924 (34.42%)
H: Chimaeron (25): 3597 (42.34%)
H: Halfus Wyrmbreaker (25): 4483 (52.77%)

.. wait.. those statistics are worse.. I'll hide them.
Edited by Taurah on 6/11/2011 6:57 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
10110
06/11/2011 05:49 PMPosted by Poena
When several people have an issue with you... and no one but your boyfriend sides with you... could it be possible the issue is actually... gasp... you?

I've yet to meet someone with the balls to say they have an issue with me to my face. Will you be the first? In fact, I daresay I have slightly more people who agree with me and thank me on and from these forums than I do people who throw fits about what I say.

What I say is blunt, unsugarcoated, and painfully true. Please continue to neglect reading the parts where I've said this server has amazing potential and has some great players on it. By all means, continue getting offended and offering excuses rather than agreeing a lot of your players and a lot of the players on this server could easily do much better.

06/11/2011 05:02 PMPosted by Taurah
Like I said in my other post, if the 9 other dps in your raid that average 60% or below can't stay connected for long enough to average at least 70% (you said Kross has connection issues, yet he has the highest average in the guild. Clearly connection is not quite so detrimental),

Also feel free to keep ignoring this. The part where I point out one of the people you say has a bad connection is your top DPS by a fairly large margin. Connectivity is not as huge of a player in this as you wish it were. Also keep ignoring the fact that I said I myself have pretty terrible internet.
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