GC, Proactive is better than Reactive:

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85 Dwarf Priest
13495
06/20/2011 01:11 PMPosted by Bashiok


Bashiok, with respect. I pray to god Blizzard fires those designers.

If a designer can't come up with a concrete reason for a change other than "I'm just playing around with it" in a game that is in current use they need to be removed from the team.

There needs to be clear and concise decisions made on class balance and less of this "well I'm just gonna do it cause."


With respect, that's incredibly rude, uncalled for, and shows you didn't grasp the point of what I said or what actually goes in to (or is required of) game design or balance.


Bashiok, with your recent deamonor on the forums, you should be the last person calling someone rude and or disrespectful.

Also, your reply to the OP did not address her main complaint. From what I've gathered, she would like to have a Blog BEFORE the changes go to the PTR or live so the community can gather data and assist with the development process a bit more.

Not all of us have play time on the PTR but would still like to have the game return to a better state.
85 Human Death Knight
12405
Bash, thank you for posting. One request for the future notes. Please refrain from statements like "we felt x was to high" and anything in generally with feelings. Please as a request to us logical posters, please say "we found in certain scenarios that specifically x, y, z, damage was too high" . It helps remove some confusion and helps us understand at least what scenarios were considered in nerfs. Thanks.

Raennie


As a logical poster you should be able to understand what it means when they say that.
85 Human Death Knight
12405
06/20/2011 02:09 PMPosted by Smellyfeet
Bashiok, with your recent deamonor on the forums, you should be the last person calling someone rude and or disrespectful.


Grow up a little.
Enhancement: Has never really been in the “top brackets” for PvE or PvP DPS potential. They were always brought for bloodlust, purge, and wind sheer. While Ret suffered from a lack of offensive pressure, Enhance suffers from a lack of burst. Expect to see Enhance receive significant burst damage improvements through strong Wolves, and an execute ability.


WTB execute and burst. very good insight on what classes have too much of and what classes need what.
85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
Communism, I "FEEL' you don't understand. I "FEEL" like there is a miscommunication. I "FEEL" like the nerfs aren't justified. Feelings can be interpreted 1000 ways and make it seem like the devs go by emotional swings and not logic. Hence, post the logical explanation and eliminate the "FEELINGS".

Raennie
90 Undead Priest
9170

The blog was definitely in the right direction, but I'd love a little more insight. I understand why they do it, but WoW developers keep how they feel extremely close to the chest. I recently watched an interview with David Kim, game balance designer of StarCraft II, and he said his team was examining whether a specific late game zerg mix was overpowered against terran. It may or may not be, but I loved that peek behind the scenes -- and I play protoss!


I agree with this. I was pleased to see the blog giving explanations on why abilities were buffed and nerfed, but I would also like to see things a little more concise. I understand it was the first attempt at a blog regarding insight into patch changes, and obviously the next one may be more ironed out.

People will always whine about things that don't go their way. That human tendency expands far outside the realm of this video game. Being hyper concise with the blog will never make everyone happy, but more info would definitely be nice to the few of us not looking to pick a fight with a developer.
90 Human Mage
10015
Communism, I "FEEL' you don't understand. I "FEEL" like there is a miscommunication. I "FEEL" like the nerfs aren't justified. Feelings can be interpreted 1000 ways and make it seem like the devs go by emotional swings and not logic. Hence, post the logical explanation and eliminate the "FEELINGS".

Raennie


They've told us many times that they consider game design to be as much, or more, art than science. I expect that if they went purely by logic, we would have a very well-structured, sensibly-designed game, with nobody playing it.
90 Undead Priest
9170

Bashiok, with your recent deamonor on the forums, you should be the last person calling someone rude and or disrespectful.


Even if Bashiok did have a habit of being rude to people on the forums (and I don't think he is, I think you have a hyper sensitive skin), he still would not be remotely close to being the last person able to tell people they are being disrespectful. This forum is so full of vile garbage. Your statement is a pretty bold statement.

Blizzard developers are people. Not elected officials. If you don't feel they are being nice enough, then don't buy their product. I am pretty damn sure you didn't buy their game for the forums anyway. You bought the game to play the game. The forums are just a perk. I am sure Blizzard is tired of teenagers that don't even have a job, and have no idea of what goes into making a game, calling Blizzard's programmers out because they are nerdraging over some stupid video game mechanic that was changed. They probably love the college kids that are going to school on their parent's money, playing WoW until 4 in the morning, telling them how they could do a better job on this game.

I know I would not be nearly as civil as Bashiok is.
Edited by Brianjosel on 6/20/2011 2:53 PM PDT
87 Orc Warrior
11625
Communism, I "FEEL' you don't understand. I "FEEL" like there is a miscommunication. I "FEEL" like the nerfs aren't justified. Feelings can be interpreted 1000 ways and make it seem like the devs go by emotional swings and not logic. Hence, post the logical explanation and eliminate the "FEELINGS".

Raennie


By "feeling" they are obviously saying, in their experience based on class performance in various environments of both PVE and PVP X change should be made. Your inference that logic does not enter into their thought processes is actually rather insulting. I don't agree with every change, every time, but making statements like that is uncalled for. To nitpick the use of the word "feel," when you've already made it clear that you understand the usage in the context is incredibly petty.
Blizzard Employee
Communism, I "FEEL' you don't understand. I "FEEL" like there is a miscommunication. I "FEEL" like the nerfs aren't justified. Feelings can be interpreted 1000 ways and make it seem like the devs go by emotional swings and not logic. Hence, post the logical explanation and eliminate the "FEELINGS".

Raennie


As soon as players don't have feelings about their experience, feelings for how class balance actually works, or emotional attachments to their characters I'm sure it'd be really easy to get completely accurate data and gameplay sentiment.

That isn't the case, and so feeling and emotions very much play a part of player experience, and so too must balance take those feelings into account.

There's a misconception that perfect mathematical balance means the game will be the most fun it can be.
32 Human Priest
410
So Bashiok necroed a two day old thread. AWESOME. Hi :D

On a serious note, I think you guys do a pretty damned good job, considering how players expect you to sit down and talk with them about how their class/spec is designed.


dont think that qualifies as a necro
85 Human Death Knight
12405
Communism, I "FEEL' you don't understand. I "FEEL" like there is a miscommunication. I "FEEL" like the nerfs aren't justified. Feelings can be interpreted 1000 ways and make it seem like the devs go by emotional swings and not logic. Hence, post the logical explanation and eliminate the "FEELINGS".

Raennie


But you're arguing over the word choice.

The end result is no change in their development process, and 5 seconds spent on adjusting their word choice to satisfy the quirky demands of a forum poster.

In contrast, Blizzard tends to most information in a more casual tone and it makes it seem much more approachable and personable, appealing to a larger audience.
85 Human Mage
10925
@OP: Ghostcrawler (even his predecessor Kalgan) used to make posts like this... Up until people screamed bloody murder about his lack of knowledge of their class and/or so called "Promises" that he did or did not make or make good on. He vanished for a little while and then came back for the blogs.

If you want to blame someone for this, you blame the community of WoW, but at the same time, blame can be placed on the shoulders of the company as well. Yes we should police ourselves and make our conduct as such so as to always get the response that we (as consumers) like to get so as to feel not ignored.

Everyone should take personal responsibility and hold themselves accountable for the Customer Service and Inquiry Answers that we recieve today.

It our fault as the community that we don't get what we believe we deserve. My suggestion at this point is to Deal with it or move on.
85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
Bash - You lend credence to the Devs support their favorite class theories. You "FEEL" DK's counter you to hard. So nerfing it in the absence of logic. I honestly don't believe that could be the case. But saying that you have to go by how you feel at any given time. Or how the perceived feeling of a collective community is, is well jenky at best. Thats like setting the game on a wave and wondering why people say it feels like going up and down, over and over again. Is this why we have never achieved balance? The devs refuse to realize that playability is subjective, balance however is analytical. I thank you for the response, but I "FEEL" you opened a can of worms with your response.

Raennie
85 Blood Elf Paladin
4830
We changed the values of Agility for plate-wearers and Strength for leather-wearers to reinforce which type of armor you should be using and so we wouldn’t have to spend diminishing returns trying to balance tanks wearing non-traditional armor sets.



what!? how many raiding plate tanks were wearing leather? i'm going to guess you could count them on one seriously mangled hand.


An agility cloak was BiS for plate tanks. Quite a few agility rings and necks were good for tanking.

Bashiok, with your recent deamonor on the forums, you should be the last person calling someone rude and or disrespectful.


Even if Bashiok did have a habit of being rude to people on the forums (and I don't think he is, I think you have a hyper sensitive skin), he still would not be remotely close to being the last person able to tell people they are being disrespectful. This forum is so full of vile garbage, that is a pretty bold statement.

Blizzard developers are people. Not elected officials. If you don't feel they are being nice enough, then don't buy their product. I am pretty damn sure you didn't buy their game for the forums anyway. You bought the game to play the game. The forums are just a perk. I am sure Blizzard is tired of teenagers that don't even have a job, and have no idea of what goes into making a game, calling Blizzard's programmers out because they are nerdraging over some stupid video game mechanic that was changed. They probably love the college kids that are gong to school on their parents money, player WoW until 4 in the morning, telling them how they could do a better job on this game.

I know I would not be nearly as civil as Bashiok is.


I agree with this completely.

I really liked the post GC made. It makes sense to do it just before a patch and not the beginning simply because there will be less gripe when something is removed from the patch.
Edited by Elidor on 6/20/2011 2:44 PM PDT
87 Tauren Druid
6615
Posted by Sethmann

Second, it takes a lot of time to justify those changes and designers are often really busy implementing the actual changes at that stage in the beta. When the changes are not even necessarily 'real' changes, justifying what might not stick probably isn't a great use of time



Bashiok, with respect. I pray to god Blizzard fires those designers.

If a designer can't come up with a concrete reason for a change other than "I'm just playing around with it" in a game that is in current use they need to be removed from the team.

There needs to be clear and concise decisions made on class balance and less of this "well I'm just gonna do it cause."



With respect, that's incredibly rude, uncalled for, and shows you didn't grasp the point of what I said or what actually goes in to (or is required of) game design or balance.


Except what he/she is saying is true (with the exception of the being fired part). Designers/developers should already have changes documented. How in the world would one developer know what another one did and why if it is not documented somewhere already? What happens when you have a new developer onboarded? How does that developer catch up with what is going on in dev if there is not already documentation listing the changes and why they were made. What happens if one of your lead developers leaves the company and you are left with only a list of what was changed and no insight to those changes?

TL:DR the reasons behind these changes should already be documented. It should not be an after-process to obtain the reasons for changes in production.
100 Human Death Knight
13775
06/20/2011 02:37 PMPosted by Raennie
I thank you for the response, but I "FEEL" you opened a can of worms with your response.

What? No he didn't, are you trolling or just trying to make some kind of a point?
85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
Yarthas

Bash Quote "That isn't the case, and so feeling and emotions very much play a part of player experience, and so too must balance take those feelings into account."

I "FEEL" its unfair rogues and druids have stealth and can start combat at any given time. It "FEELS" cheap or cheating.

Do you see why this goes no where? Its an endless and vicious cycle. Every patch someone will "FEEL" that someone else is Over powered. That's why I gave the analogy of a wave.

Raennie
Edited by Raennie on 6/20/2011 2:54 PM PDT
100 Human Death Knight
13775
But it's also very true that blood tanking in progression mode content works, it works well as long as things are done perfectly (to the point of anal retentiveness). On paper, it doesn't need changing. In reality, any endgame tank knows what it "feels" like to actually shuffle runes around, to essentially give up a death strike "block" for 5 seconds to reapply diseases, to micromanage blood runes to game more death strikes while keeping blade barrier up. In that sense, how it *feels* to tank heroic mode raids as a dk is pretty bad despite the fact that from a development perspective, the numbers are there.

It's also a large part of why the Tanking Q&A fell so flat on its face. People ask about changes to blood and its mastery, with death strike dominating things so much that you can't afford to use it reactively in any reasonable set of circumstances. Developers say "We're happy", when it's obvious the players aern't. You're arguing from the perspective that they shouldn't use the word at all, when it's very much part of the problem and should be addressed as such.

And yes I realize that this is the DD forum.
Edited by Yarrthas on 6/20/2011 2:58 PM PDT
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