GC, Proactive is better than Reactive:

(Locked)

85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
Yarthas your feeling and someone other person are completely different. I actually enjoy the complexity of blood tanking. I hated tanking on my paladin back in the day cause it was literally concecrate, judgement and wrath on undead. I could only AOE, but I was bar none the best at it. Incredibly easy and boring. I enjoy having lots of cooldowns and timing death strikes. Is it perfect, no. But if we were to go by the majority of feelings every patch would be a roller coaster and most classes would be reduced to 2 buttons or less.

Raennie
85 Human Paladin
6555
I "FEEL" its unfair rogues and druids have stealth and can start combat at any given time. It "FEELS" cheap or cheating.

Do you see why this goes no where? Its an endless and vicious cycle that never ends. Every patch someone will "FEEL" that someone else is Over powered. That's why I gave the analogy of a wave.


A rogue or druid starting combat when they choose to only feels cheap to bad players. A robot wouldn't make a good WoW developer because the game isn't simply a mathematical equation.
Edited by Hofleurette on 6/20/2011 3:02 PM PDT
85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
Hof if they listen to your feelings, they will listen to those uninformed players feelings as well. Hence the vicious cycle continues and balance can never be achieved, cause someone will alwyas "FEEL" like they got the short end of the stick(gnome pun intended :P)

Raennie
Edited by Raennie on 6/20/2011 3:05 PM PDT
90 Orc Warrior
11610
Communism, I "FEEL' you don't understand. I "FEEL" like there is a miscommunication. I "FEEL" like the nerfs aren't justified. Feelings can be interpreted 1000 ways and make it seem like the devs go by emotional swings and not logic. Hence, post the logical explanation and eliminate the "FEELINGS".

Raennie


As soon as players don't have feelings about their experience, feelings for how class balance actually works, or emotional attachments to their characters I'm sure it'd be really easy to get completely accurate data and gameplay sentiment.

That isn't the case, and so feeling and emotions very much play a part of player experience, and so too must balance take those feelings into account.

There's a misconception that perfect mathematical balance means the game will be the most fun it can be.


There is also a misconception around the blizzard offices that a 20% DPS difference between the top performing class and the bottom performing class will make things "fun" as well.
90 Human Death Knight
10870
If you asked some people, I'm sure they'd tell you that for DPS specs death knights have been a roller coaster the past few patches. Unholy went from strong to slumming it with enhance over the span of one patch and a couple of hotfixes. Frost went from "fun but meh depending on rng) to amazing in PvP and average/high average for raid DPS in essentially a single patch, and stands to possibly go back to useless again for PvP due to 4.2's effective removal from pvp of the dark succor glyph (with some raiding implications as well). I know I'm not looking forward to being the #1 focus target every single arena match due to lacking defense and escape mechanisms. If you want to say that things will be bad the more they use the word feel, it's already like that without a simple word being included.

Interesting side note, a 10% gap in dps is about 100% of the top end dps of an endgame raider back in burning crusade. With the way numbers have inflated, you can't just say a 15% or 20% gap is where you should draw the line. Even so, the horrible mechanics of enhancement (lol searing totem on heroic nefarian) overshadow even a 20% gap in dps, yet it's been allowed to sit in for the entire content patch. Meh, I'm just whining now I think, sorry.
Edited by Yarrthas on 6/20/2011 3:10 PM PDT
85 Orc Hunter
2840
06/20/2011 12:40 PMPosted by Bashiok
Finally, we greatly appreciate feedback from the community and it can have a big influence on our game design, but at the same time we want to avoid the perception that the players are collaborating on with us on designing the game. It's tricky to manage expectations in that way, but if we lead players to believe they have more influence on design decisions than they actually do, then there's a lot of undue frustrated and dismay when we don't make a change that some may really wants us to make. Being able to take player feedback while making sure they don't expect that feedback to be implemented as-is can be a tough balancing act, but is still a necessary one.


I can see where that is true. But, where's the line? Asking for a change in Aimed Shot to be buffed and posts about concerns of outdated talents and imbalances in Hunters, I believe, are separate standpoints. Some times, it's just nice to at least be acknowledged and updated on current ideas for the problems we face.
85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
Yarthas, the difference is that we can at least test said scenarios from both sides on the PTR. For instance, "Obliterate did to much damage against priest and mages in arena/RBGs." Ok well lets go test it. Get a statistical average of how many times we break 20k. If I found that I hit that 40% of the time, I would say ok I agree with principle of the nerf, but not the solution. Lets do a Csmash sort of thing. Instead we get, We "FEEl" dk damage is to high. How do you test that? Its a completely subjective statement.

Raennie
85 Human Paladin
6555
06/20/2011 03:04 PMPosted by Raennie
Hof if they listen to your feelings, they will listen to those uninformed players feelings as well. Hence the vicious cycle continues and balance can never be achieved, cause someone will alwyas "FEEL" like they got the short end of the stick(gnome pun intended :P)


I'm sure the developers can read a post, decide whether or not it's sensible, and move on. Anyone who has a good understanding of PvP will know right away someone who complains about rogues and Ferals getting the opener "because it feels overpowered!" should be ignored. That's not a problem at any level of competitive PvP and said poster should play the game more until he feels differently. ;)
Edited by Hofleurette on 6/20/2011 3:23 PM PDT
90 Human Rogue
4835
The blog seemed to be popular, and even players who disagreed with their being nerfed seemed to appreciate the fact that we tried to give some insight into what we were thinking. GC and the his crew are going to try to keep making similar blogs for every patch. I think it was one of the more positively received blogs in long while


GC said Cloak and CR were nerfed because Rogues could counter casters and melee too easily, yet Mage's can counter melee and casters too easily by doing Counterspell caster, Frost nova melee, Deep Freeze caster.

That's 8 seconds two players couldn't do anything (And if they use a CC break they'll just get nova'd again)

How come Mage isn't getting the same treatment as Rogues when the situation is exactly the same for them?

Make Frost Nova and counterspell share a cooldown with each other. It's only fair.
Edited by Zafire on 6/20/2011 3:25 PM PDT
85 Human Paladin
7590
Offering a lot of justification for changes early on a patch though is challenging for a number of reasons.

First is that patch builds are often just snapshots of the data at any given time.

Second, it takes a lot of time to justify those changes and designers are often really busy implementing the actual changes at that stage in the beta.


Bashiok, the biggest issue that I have with the ex-post facto style of post is that it doesn't give a sense as to where classes are headed, only what you guys have decided.

As for taking too much time to justify all of those changes. You'll notice in my original post there is a lot of "___ isn't working like we want. As such, expect to see us try and improve ___"

This simple approach keeps a lot of pressure off of the developers from having to actually explain the exact solution, but demonstrates what the devs see as problems. Moreover, it doesn't take any more time than posting after the fact what you were trying to solve and why.

Moreover, the proactive approach has an additional benefit after the PTR notes are posted. Since the community knows what you're trying to solve, the community can help demonstrate whether your proposed solution will indeed fix the problem.

P.S. We always appreciate hearing from you.

WTB execute and burst. very good insight on what classes have too much of and what classes need what.

Thanks, I like to think I know quite a bit about the game :)
Edited by Divinara on 6/20/2011 3:42 PM PDT
85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
*Hugs Developers* I still love you guys. Meh just different point of views.

Raennie
Edited by Raennie on 6/20/2011 3:44 PM PDT
90 Human Death Knight
10870
Also for the record, I enjoyed all of GC's blog posts, with the only real drawback I saw being that they wern't appropriate for certain topics (or specific items in a topic) simply because of how generalized they had to be due to the intended audience. More communication is good, regardless.
Edited by Yarrthas on 6/20/2011 3:34 PM PDT
90 Goblin Hunter
8025
Communism, I "FEEL' you don't understand. I "FEEL" like there is a miscommunication. I "FEEL" like the nerfs aren't justified. Feelings can be interpreted 1000 ways and make it seem like the devs go by emotional swings and not logic. Hence, post the logical explanation and eliminate the "FEELINGS".

Raennie


As soon as players don't have feelings about their experience, feelings for how class balance actually works, or emotional attachments to their characters I'm sure it'd be really easy to get completely accurate data and gameplay sentiment.

That isn't the case, and so feeling and emotions very much play a part of player experience, and so too must balance take those feelings into account.

There's a misconception that perfect mathematical balance means the game will be the most fun it can be.


Perfect mathmatical balance doesn't make it fun, that's a fact. You can draw upon that even within a specs mechanics, not just vs other classes.

Hunters rotations in a perfect scenario are fine examples of mathematical balance, as it is for most classes. But when you introduce factors like movement, LOS, target switching or aoe to single target it breaks down. There is no real margin for error.

GC's assertion that 1% of the player base might become OP or that it's a factor in class design is inherently flawed. That top 1% is OP from the perspective of the rest of the player base regardless of class, that's what makes them elite.

85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
Scyx, thats more of a feeling based argument than mathematical so you know. Think about it, you'll understand. If not here is a hint "statistical average of the community is sub par, 1% is an anomaly of perfect players in all classes and should be disregarded.". Why is that FPS are considered balanced, absolute mathematical equivalence. Only determination of success is skill. Now is that kind of balance even possible in a MMO. Probably not, but one thing I do know, people will always "Feel", underpowered or overpowered and balancing on that will just leave people motion sick.

Raennie
85 Blood Elf Hunter
7125


06/20/2011 01:11 PMPosted by Bashiok


Bashiok, with respect. I pray to god Blizzard fires those designers.

If a designer can't come up with a concrete reason for a change other than "I'm just playing around with it" in a game that is in current use they need to be removed from the team.

There needs to be clear and concise decisions made on class balance and less of this "well I'm just gonna do it cause."


With respect, that's incredibly rude, uncalled for, and shows you didn't grasp the point of what I said or what actually goes in to (or is required of) game design or balance.


made my night.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
- Feral Tanks: Bears seem to be having more problems during the initial agro grab than their peers. We will exploring ways to boost initial agro generation.

Enrage fix pretty much solved this problem.

06/17/2011 10:33 AMPosted by Divinara
Additionally, bears suffered the most when we normalized health pools and were not compensated enough on the mitigation front.

Wat.

06/17/2011 10:33 AMPosted by Divinara
While we made improvements last patch, it fell short of our expectations and will again be looking for ways to improve survivability.

I hope this was supposed to be a joke.

The real problem is resource generation on content you are geared for, and how woefully terrible it is compared to every other tank (hi NR). And on top of that, how it negatively impacts our survivability.

However, we feel they are "in the right ballpark" in PvE. So we will be trying to directly address mobility for PvP reasons.

Well since they failed to address Balance's epic overpoweredness of multi-cross-dotting, I'm going to say shennanigans to that.

06/17/2011 10:33 AMPosted by Divinara
Conversely, we over-estimated the effects STR had on damage output and damage is now scaling much faster than it otherwise should have.

No, I think they estimated it right but didn't provide full disclosure for the SR buff. Which isn't anything new (Hi NR).

- Resto Druids: We feel resto druids are currently in the right place. They should still feel very much the HoT healer, but not at a sizeable expense to their direct healing capabilities. We hear a lot of calls for druids to get a mitigation cooldown, however should this happen healers should know that it would come at a hefty toll on healing output.

I think "hefty" is a bit of an overstatement, but otherwise pretty much accurate.
85 Human Paladin
7590
Arielle, while I appreciate your input on my proposed changes, I don't want to dwell on the content of my ideas or reasoning behind them (at least in this post).

I am simply trying to demonstrate a preferred approach to communicating changes.

That is:
1) Write about each class.
2) Tell us about any issues the developers are looking at.
*3) Tell us why it's an issue.
*4) Explain any history behind the issue
*5) Tell us what to expect in the future to correct the issue.

*Denotes an optional field.
Edited by Divinara on 6/20/2011 4:21 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Arielle, while I appreciate your input on my proposed changes, I don't want to dwell on the content of my ideas or reasoning behind them (at least in this post).

I am simply trying to demonstrate a preferred approach to communicating changes.

Fair enough, but like anything, it should be based in reality ^.^
85 Night Elf Hunter
5930
Communism, I "FEEL' you don't understand. I "FEEL" like there is a miscommunication. I "FEEL" like the nerfs aren't justified. Feelings can be interpreted 1000 ways and make it seem like the devs go by emotional swings and not logic. Hence, post the logical explanation and eliminate the "FEELINGS".

Raennie


As soon as players don't have feelings about their experience, feelings for how class balance actually works, or emotional attachments to their characters I'm sure it'd be really easy to get completely accurate data and gameplay sentiment.

That isn't the case, and so feeling and emotions very much play a part of player experience, and so too must balance take those feelings into account.

There's a misconception that perfect mathematical balance means the game will be the most fun it can be.

Then how come we have seen nerfs to fun such as the removal of corpse explosion and eyes of the beast? We feel like we liked those abilities. I also feel that pets aren't unique enough, I am pretty much required to take a specific pet in raids based on the buff, why can't all hunter pets get across the board abilities like titans grip at the bottom of their tree and only one can be chosen? That way players could use whatever pet they like and still provide the buff that the raid needs.

I also consider wiping a raid group because my nitro boosts malfunction a nerf to fun.
Edited by Nanardor on 6/20/2011 4:32 PM PDT
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]