Analyzing this Development answer...

A: Death knights are a somewhat different style of tank compared to the others. They take significantly more damage than other tanks, but then heal/shield that extra damage back instead (and sometimes more). Due to taking more damage, and that damage coming in spikes, they’re also the most likely to die to unexpected burst (such as when they don’t have runes up to Death Strike, have no cooldowns available, and fail to dodge or parry a few attacks in a row. They also have more personal impact on their own survivability and mitigation than any other tank, by tying much of their performance to Death Strike (and especially optimally timing their Death Strikes). So in the hands of a really skilled player, they can do some amazing things, but not usually much better than the other tanks. We’d actually like to head more in that direction with the other tanks (making them tie more of their defensive performance to their ability usage), in the future.


Taken verbatim from "Ask the Devs" Tanking.

So read the underline portions in sequence... Death Knights take more spike damage, are held more responsible for dealing with that spike damage, and assuming they DO deal with it, are not usually much better than any other tank?

Maintaining of course, that other tanks have less of a responsibility for mitigating damage, and evidently, take significantly less damage (inference based on this Dev affirmation of the DK's "somewhat differant style").

So essentially, they take spikier damage, are affirmed to have to play harder, are at a higher risk of dying, and don't really do better than any other tank?

Where in this does the DK "Style" seem balanced?

Additionally, there is the tidbit about optimally timing Death Strikes. Was shield stacking not introduced as a "fix" to this?

Ultimately, my question is; when maintaining the affirmations made by the Devs regarding the Death Knight tank style, where are Death Knights compensated for the extra skill and risk associated with their class' tank spec?



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OP not inflammatory enough to illicit responses?
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90 Orc Death Knight
13240
06/14/2011 07:52 AMPosted by Blindpew
OP not inflammatory enough to illicit responses?


Nothing that the tanking community hasn't known for a long while and posted many times about. There are already more than one DK tanking threads on the first page.
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Nothing that the tanking community hasn't known for a long while and posted many times about. There are already more than one DK tanking threads on the first page.


I'll concede the latter, but I think the fact that the community knows about it is irrelevant, since THIS was the answer the DEVS provided.

What i'm failing to see is how someone responsible for developing a tank spec can honestly make this point, believe it, and then NOT acknowledge any significant problem.

It's right there. I would have been more satisfied if they had said "Hero Tax, due to starting at level 55, DKs have to do more work while tanking to make up for the levels they got to skip."

At least that would be justification.

Looking at the answer alone, I make the conclusion that Death Knights were not well developed tanks. This notion is further supported by the various logs, sims and anecdotes that have appeared on the forums over the past months, from people far more dedicated to tanking than myself.

All this without re-iterating the whole "Yes the best Dks are barely as good as the other tanks, if you aren't the best it's your problem, not ours" which seems to be the underlying motivation behind the post I quoted.

I'm trying to find newer arguements agains the current model, I suppose. A daunting task given the exposure.

The Death Knight, with this model, is an obvious Niche role. I thought Niche tanking was deemed unfun and done away with?
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
15115
Nobody's talking about it because it's pretty much what everyone expected. It's perfectly in line with the "everything is fine, l2p" line we've been getting for a while.
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85 Undead Death Knight
5765
I created a similar, yet less inflammatory post in General. I tried to be optimistic and show the ups and downs, the questions that I felt were given an adequate answer even if I didn't agree with it (like the Vengeance one).

I was temp. banned for, "Spamming/Trolling."

I personally think being told that your top-tier class representation complaining about Quality of Life issues, which they are best at, is them being bads and should learn to play, is trolling.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8060
So in the hands of a really skilled player, they can do some amazing things, but not usually much better than the other tanks.

It's this quote that I like best. It managed to trip my logic circuits.

I ate breakfast earlier today... are you not AMAZED?!!
I didn't eat my breakfast any better than anyone else could have done, but I did it, and amazement should follow.
BTW, stick around for lunch and you'll be further amazed by my prowess.
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I might switch all my DK stats to stam/mastery and build a lawlroic strategy... maybe that'll keep me playing...

Might as well exploit the niches Development created.
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06/14/2011 08:59 AMPosted by Corpseicle
I personally think being told that your top-tier class representation complaining about Quality of Life issues, which they are best at, is them being bads and should learn to play, is trolling.


This is the interesting thing though... they didn't adress QoL at all. They responded to a question which represent bias regarding Death Knights, to the effect that they were a somehow more advantageous model.

The Dev's answers then explained how the model was... functonional? more difficult and riskier, but not any better.

To me, it says; "We know DKs have more stress in an encounter, but deem it acceptable."

I want to know what this one spec did do deserve this "Hero Tax."
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85 Undead Death Knight
5765
Worse, it's not just going to be QoL soon. The fact that rune gaming is more important in heroic raid than normal raids shows a scaling problem. It's only going to get more and more reliant on it. Then there's Dos's math...
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85 Draenei Warrior
0
there are a dozen posts on this, including my own what should tanks do thread, because the devs like the DK model and want to convert the rest of the tanks to it.

IE they want us that busy, they want us that involved and they want that constant risk of failure.

personally, i dont want it. i think dealing with threat, positioning, cooldown use, and communication is enough of a role.
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1 Goblin Warrior
0
What I find intresting/disheartining is how completely ignored the Blood Tree is.

I can understand the devs not wanting to tinker with the scaling issues until they fully manifest, it's not how I would want it handled, but I understand the wait and see approach in this regard.

What boggles my mind is the complete lack of tweaks, communication etc concerning the QoL issues that this tanking forum is routinely flooded with concering blood DKs.

I mean there is not even a whisper of trying to smooth out rough spots such as disease upkeep and RE management etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather the tree get a more indepth look at, but that's like asking for major surgery, Blood DKs aren't even getting a bandaid.
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1 Goblin Warrior
0
there are a dozen posts on this, including my own what should tanks do thread, because the devs like the DK model and want to convert the rest of the tanks to it.

IE they want us that busy, they want us that involved and they want that constant risk of failure.

personally, i dont want it. i think dealing with threat, positioning, cooldown use, and communication is enough of a role.


An active model is not a bad design goal. If done well I think it could be quite rewarding. I'm sure if it was implemented a well flowing playstyle you would enjoy it more than you think.

Problem is that isn't what blood is, and the devs don't seem to understand that. It is active mitigation, but it's like driving some hybrid monstrosity made up of two completely different machines.
Edited by Grymix on 6/14/2011 10:05 AM PDT
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Problem is that isn't what blood is, and the devs don't seem to understand that. It is active mitigation, but it's like driving some hybrid monstrosity made up of two completely different machines


qft.
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06/14/2011 09:56 AMPosted by Xurk
IE they want us that busy, they want us that involved


I can't speak for druids, but I find my warrior and paladin involving, albeit the warrior os 45 and the paladin 83.

The warrior ALWAYS has something to push, or charge, or shout at, or slam. There is something to use each GCD if you're looking for it.

The paladin is similar, but it means helping others, not just smacking mobs around. There is a host of tools available to these classes to fill the void passive mitigation creates.

Death Knights, however, are the only class i've played that still has down time... and when tanking this is a disaster.

Yeah, active mitigation, then some sitting on runes... then some staring at runes... then some panicking to catch up. When RNG is in your favor it can run pretty smoothly, but most of the time I find myself looking for something useful to do... while "failing to dodge or parry several attacks in a row."

Not only is the style reliant on being able to react to every other swing, but the style leaves you without the resources to do so frequently. So... what? Hero Tax?

Viable =/= enjoyable. please fix it Blizzard, FFS. I hate being this blunt but... come on.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
You know what I find amusing. They went out of their way to make it so that every tank has access to a short-cd interrupt and design just about every raid boss around the notion that we will use it. And THEN, they redesign all those interrupts to never miss so that we don't have to worry about hit ratings screwing things up. All to ensure that tanks can fill the role of "interrupting spells" so that DPS don't have to.

Except somehow they expect tanks to exercise near super-human focus and attention to the fight, while doing the same to manage our resources, abilities, and cooldowns. I'm starting to get the feeling that tanks are going to be EXPECTED to physically and mentally carry 75% of their raid/groups.

All so that DPS don't have to think about anything more complicated than "durr I press da button and the da boss dies. I r awesomesauce."

I'd say I was okay with that...but the only reason I didn't mind carrying that much weight in Wrath was because it wasn't all that stressful to do.
Edited by Feandel on 6/14/2011 12:19 PM PDT
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Another thread?

Come on dude, there's like three others on the front page already.


And there will continue to be, bwahahahah.

In all seriousness though.. I can only hope that the shear volume of threads ilicits some changes.
Edited by Blindpew on 6/14/2011 11:21 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5955
You know what I find amusing. They went out of their way to make it so that every tank has access to a short-cd interrupt and design just about every raid boss around the notion that we will use it. And THEN, they redesign all those interrupts to never miss so that we don't have to worry about hit ratings screwing things up. All to ensure that tanks can fill the role of "interrupting spells" so that DPS don't have to to.

All so that DPS don't have to think about anything more complicated than "durr I press da button and the da boss dies. I r awesomesauce."



/truth
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14 Dwarf Hunter
30
06/14/2011 07:52 AMPosted by Blindpew
OP not inflammatory enough to illicit responses?


more that it's been seen, discussed and summarily dismissed by those with the ability to make changes.

the rest of us are tired of dealing with it, so we reroll, quit or grin and bear it since we've had the toons for 2 1/2 years now.

everything that can BE said, has BEEN said. every spec of evidence that can be submitted, has been submitted. we've done what we can, the devs disagree with us when we say "we're not having fun" - of course you're having fun, why else would you be paying and playing?
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