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85 Undead Death Knight
5765


you folks need to see this topic. specifically you need to read just how absurd its gotten to the point where a blood dk in dps gear (more haste = more rune regen) now had better survivability than an all tanked out gear.


/sigh

Did, you, y'know, read the thread?

How about The Blood Thread? A revisit to that? Pretty much any blood QoL that isn't that one.
Edited by Corpseicle on 6/15/2011 3:56 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Death Knight
14080
06/15/2011 02:20 PMPosted by Zarhym
Related, we understand that some DKs don’t like having to make the decision about whether to Death Strike or whether to apply tanking debuffs. That’s really the tension that’s supposed to be at the heart of any resource system -- I have a limited allotment of X, so at this moment do I want to use X on this one ability or on a separate ability?

Alright then, I'll just acknowledge "DS or STD" as a decision a DK tank has to make.

So please equalize all tanks:

- Demoralizing Shout now makes you unable to block for 5s.
- Demoralizing Roar now makes you unable to proc Savage Defense for 5s.
- Your judgements now make you unable to block for 5s.
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85 Orc Warlock
12800
I find it intresting that Zarhym used the description of a manual vs. an automatic transmission when trying to describe how DK tanking is like and how I would ultimately like it to work, the smooth manual transmission of a well tuned sports car.

That is not how it currently feels. Right now I'd describe blood tanking closer to driving a half broken old jalopy and that constantly stalls while trying to shift gears.

I find it interesting that their justification for the state of DKs is that "DKs can be massively OP if played by pros, but kinda suck otherwise." It offends me that the Blizzard stance is that my Warrior/Druid/Paladin can't be as good as a well played DK; it also kind of annoys me that my preferred class is being accused of being "automatic transmission".

It also irritates me that early Wrath affliction got gutted because the DoT upkeep was too complex; I practiced on those target dummies constantly while in the 75-80 stretch, and was so good at it that I spanked Warlocks in Naxx gear in my first Sarth 3 hours after I hit 80. I loved that complexity, and the satisfaction of getting it right; I also understood that it wasn't really fair that the small minority of people that could do it got to be that much better than everyone else, when nobody else had that chance. Not pleased to see this come back again though, particularly on something much less fluid that DoT upkeep.
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86 Goblin Death Knight
8890
06/15/2011 03:51 PMPosted by Aradel
I really like eflow's post, I wish I could mash the like button harder.


You don't have to mash it harder, but if you start Tanking in your Haste DPS gear, you'll be able to mash it FASTER and have potentially as effective, if not MORE effective results. Real testing needs to happen on this before we have any real conclusions.

See the other post that's kicking around in this forum now.

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85 Worgen Death Knight
10145
06/15/2011 02:20 PMPosted by Zarhym
In many driving games for example you have the choice of an automatic or manual transmission. Many players choose the automatic, suspecting that they are probably not going to be as fast as a player who is awesome at managing their clutch, but it means they never have to mess with the clutch and can still win plenty of races. On the other hand, imagine that the player who plays the manual perfectly is performing at 100% and the player who performs the manual poorly is performing at 25%. Choosing an automatic transmission for 75% performance may be perfectly acceptable.


Tanking on my DK is like working a manual transmission and I like that, what I don't like is that it feels like a manual with no clutch. The smoothness I want to feel as I shift gears isn't there, instead I have to put in guess work to make the sure the engine will be at the right rpm before I smash from 2nd to 3rd and hope I don't blow the transmision all together.

Secondly I would like to know how it is ok that DK mastery can be affected negatively by other classes? When a preist or pally places a bubble on me the reduction in damage then reduces both my ability to heal and my ability to mitigate damage with Blood Shield. I'm pretty sure no other tanking class suffers any loss, no matter how small or large, to their ability to mitigate damage just because another class is doing what they are meant to do. Now with changes to Illuminated Healing(stacking to 1/3 rd pallies hp), increased crit heals (200% heal from crits affecting things like Divine Aegis), and gear scaling this impact will only increase. It seems like this is a clear indication that somehting is wrong and I hope it leads to positive changes for Blood DK's in the future.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
13370
I find it intresting that Zarhym used the description of a manual vs. an automatic transmission when trying to describe how DK tanking is like and how I would ultimately like it to work, the smooth manual transmission of a well tuned sports car.

That is not how it currently feels. Right now I'd describe blood tanking closer to driving a half broken old jalopy and that constantly stalls while trying to shift gears.

What he meant to say is that it is like driving a brand new automobile versus trying to drive your old truck where you control the fuel pump with your mouth.
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90 Gnome Death Knight
6880
06/15/2011 03:54 PMPosted by Illyama
you folks need to see this topic. specifically you need to read just how absurd its gotten to the point where a blood dk in dps gear (more haste = more rune regen) now had better survivability than an all tanked out gear.


It's not the haste. It's just that he played better. Granted, it shows the huge swing in DK performance. It also shows that DPS gear played well is better than what Blizzard thinks is an acceptable number of DSs for a DK, by one using tanking gear. But the haste isn't the problem (yet...it may eventually be).
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85 Undead Priest
8400
I found this response odd for another reason. I think most tanks would agree that Cataclysm took a significant amount of control over their own survivability out of their own hands. Tank cooldowns were generally nerfed (slightly) with less damage prevention and longer cooldown periods. Some other changes affected this too, like changes to block.

Overall I think those changes were good, though they did remove some of the appeal from tanking for me. However, this comment about putting more control over survivability into the hands of tanks themselves, like tying damage reduction to their skill usage, seems to be exactly the opposite direction.

I like that new direction but... I'm not sure what to expect. Is this an admission that some of the Cata tanking changes took us in the wrong direction? or is it maybe lip service about something devs support philosophically, but that doesn't have much chance of making it into the game as other, pragmatic balancing concerns have pushed it out?
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85 Troll Shaman
10315


One thing we have discussed is giving players more control over whether they make this decision (trading higher risk for higher return) or not. In many driving games for example you have the choice of an automatic or manual transmission. Many players choose the automatic, suspecting that they are probably not going to be as fast as a player who is awesome at managing their clutch, but it means they never have to mess with the clutch and can still win plenty of races. On the other hand, imagine that the player who plays the manual perfectly is performing at 100% and the player who performs the manual poorly is performing at 25%. Choosing an automatic transmission for 75% performance may be perfectly acceptable. You give up a little theoretical performance in return for having less going on. Tanking can often have a lot going on. Maybe there is a talent choice that lets DKs have a more powerful Death Strike in return for weaker passive mitigation. Some players would take that talent, and some might only take it for some encounters.


This seems like an awesome job for the Glyph system, if it were applied to all 4 tanks and the numbers re-balanced to something like that. Take Shield Block for example; what if there was a glyph that lowered the amount of block/crit block gained to 8%, in exchange for increasing the duration to 30 seconds? It makes it slightly more boring (read: easier), but if you master the 30 second CD model, you'll do much better at managing your physical damage taken than someone with the almost-passive model (as a caveat, the 6 second magic damage reduction would still have to be in place, as encounters are designed around that kind of thing, but this would definitely spice up the physical damage mitigation game).

For Druids, what if a glyph/talent allowed you to store up Savage Defense like the Ruby Drake in The Occulus, and toggle it on/off to better manage your mitigation?

Paladins could have an option to have old Holy Shield or new Holy Shield, with properly balanced numbers of course.

I'm just spitballing here, but I think it would make tanking big raid bosses that you don't even have to move (Read: Magmaw, Atramades, Maloriak, V&T, Cho'Gall, and Sinestra) involve something other than mashing threat buttons to stay at the top of the threat meter.
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85 Human Death Knight
7585
06/15/2011 04:02 PMPosted by Dosvidaniya
What he meant to say is that it is like driving a brand new automobile versus trying to drive your old truck where you control the fuel pump with your mouth.

must... not... make.. mental...image! lol.
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Community Manager
(Assuming Blood is the manual transmission, and the other three classes are automatic)

Amazing DKs aren't 25% better than Amazing Paladins/Warriors/Druids, so what is the point of a system that is incredibly punishing and only slightly rewarding?

The 25%, 75% and 100% percentiles weren’t meant to be taken literally. If a DK feels like he or she has to work much harder than other tanks to achieve about the same amount of survivability, then that feels bad (and to be fair, we had this exact problem with paladin tanks being too easy to play well in the previous expansion). On the other hand, if a DK played well completely trumps all other tanks, then the very best guilds for whom the skill cap isn’t an issue, will just use DK tanks. We see a pretty good spread of DK tanks among both great raiding guilds and all raiding guilds for that matter, so we don’t think the numbers are so far off that groups are either flocking to or avoiding DK tanks.
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90 Tauren Druid
10955
06/15/2011 04:22 PMPosted by Daciana
What he meant to say is that it is like driving a brand new automobile versus trying to drive your old truck where you control the fuel pump with your mouth.

must... not... make.. mental...image! lol.


In soviet Russia fuel pumps you!
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85 Worgen Druid
3755
The blue response seems to suggest that they've balanced Blood tanking with the idea of mathematic perfection and flawless timing that would likely require telepathy. What it seems to miss (in terms of their view of timing death strikes versus the community that's actually done heroic raiding) is that it isn't practical, or even possible, for an actual human playing the game to pull that off. So all the ephemeral benefits to the DK system are in fact pretty much unattainable except through ridiculous attention to detail and muscle reflex coupled with a healthy dose of sheer blind luck (the latter of which is the biggest problem).

It also still didn't explain the intrinsic contradictions riddled through the tree's design.
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90 Tauren Druid
10955
The blue response seems to suggest that they've balanced Blood tanking with the idea of mathematic perfection and flawless timing that would likely require telepathy. What it seems to miss (in terms of their view of timing death strikes versus the community that's actually done heroic raiding) is that it isn't practical, or even possible, for an actual human playing the game to pull that off. So all the ephemeral benefits to the DK system are in fact pretty much unattainable except through ridiculous attention to detail and muscle reflex coupled with a healthy dose of sheer blind luck (the latter of which is the biggest problem).

It also still didn't explain the intrinsic contradictions riddled through the tree's design.


Perfect timing is irrelevant when your mitigation move can be dodged blocked and parried.
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85 Human Death Knight
11740
06/15/2011 04:25 PMPosted by Zarhym
If a DK feels like he or she has to work much harder than other tanks to achieve about the same amount of survivability, then that feels bad


I know I could elaborate this in a hundred different ways, but it wasn't until I tanked Cho'gall on my warrior that I realized he shouts "Stop. Hammer time!"

I was delighted and probably giggled, but then I felt bad because I had been tanking him for MONTHS on my DK and was never able to notice it.
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85 Worgen Druid
3755
The blue response seems to suggest that they've balanced Blood tanking with the idea of mathematic perfection and flawless timing that would likely require telepathy. What it seems to miss (in terms of their view of timing death strikes versus the community that's actually done heroic raiding) is that it isn't practical, or even possible, for an actual human playing the game to pull that off. So all the ephemeral benefits to the DK system are in fact pretty much unattainable except through ridiculous attention to detail and muscle reflex coupled with a healthy dose of sheer blind luck (the latter of which is the biggest problem).

It also still didn't explain the intrinsic contradictions riddled through the tree's design.


Perfect timing is irrelevant when your mitigation move can be dodged blocked and parried.


That too, especially since the current system tends to penalize tanks for investing too heavily in expertise/hit until you start outgearing content... which I don't think really happens in heroic mode raiding.
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1 Goblin Warrior
0
So basically what I am getting out of this is DKs shouldn't really expect any fine tuning in what we've been calling "QoL issues" any time soon.

Correct?

And just to clarifiy I mean in regards to our debuff upkeep, and the interaction with blade barrier and RE (I won't even bother to ask about the whole mastery thing as I realise that is probably even more involved).
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62 Troll Druid
580
I don't think the arguement is "why are dk tanks 25% better or worse", 25 being an example number or not.

It's: Why do DK's have to sacrifice survivability to theoretically get survivability? There is no choice. If you want to maximize your survivability, you prioritize Death strike over any and anything else you do.

Not why are DKs worse. Not why do dks take more damage. Not why do dks have less armor. not why do whatever...

Simply, you talk about "the best players optimize yada yada yada" but when it comes down to it our abilities and stats are directly detrimental to eachother. And the more skilled the deathknight, the more of an issue it becomes.

Or is the answer simply, "We're okay with that. We understand your predicament but we feel that as long as the lowest skill level does 'acceptably' in current content we're okay with it overall just being badly designed, because we don't feel that it impacts things TOO negatively"?

Because that's how it seems to me.
Edited by Moorti on 6/15/2011 4:34 PM PDT
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85 Undead Death Knight
5765
06/15/2011 04:25 PMPosted by Zarhym
If a DK feels like he or she has to work much harder than other tanks to achieve about the same amount of survivability, then that feels bad



Feels bad man.
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100 Human Paladin
5765
I know I could elaborate this in a hundred different ways, but it wasn't until I tanked Cho'gall on my warrior that I realized he shouts "Stop. Hammer time!"

I was delighted and probably giggled, but then I felt bad because I had been tanking him for MONTHS on my DK and was never able to notice it.


I am so looking out for that next time. I've tanked and healed on that fight and I've never noticed it. Probably because I'm always on worship duty.
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