Ask a Developer is not working.

85 Dwarf Shaman
4565

No offense but, the Blood DK Tanking sub-community did not take well the fact that DK Mastery is both:

- In a good place, according to the Dev's

- An actual model for how other Masteries might work for other Tanks (also, from the Dev's)

To add, in the Tanking Forums, we're currently discussing the features of Blood DK's going minimal avoidance, maxing Haste/Mastery and taking Hit/Expertise to prevent misses and maximize what little defense we have.

The spec (Blood DK) needs a quality of life consideration, I think, and so do many others as well, it seems.



1. This isn't really the right thread to be complaining about a specific class.


2. I think the larger point is that you actually got a response. You may not like Blizzards stance on the issue, but at least you know their position and can move on.

The much greater issue is that for every class and spec there are issues that are reiterated by the players countless times that they never get feedback on, so they're just left to wonder.
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61 Tauren Hunter
580
I'm not going to bother getting into the specifics of what was answered or why or any fansite articles bashing the process; it's been covered many times before.

But, at the core, I think we agree it's not working. While we could (and do) lament over the reasons why a scheduled Q&A based on question popularity doesn't sit well with people, the bottom line is it can't go on as it is.

We don't expect people will ever be completely happy with any Q&A. Regardless of how they're conducted we'll never get to every question, so there are always going to be complaints that we didn't answer the right ones. But Ask the Devs is different. While there are certainly arguments that answers didn't say the right things, or didn't give a firm answer on how a problem would be resolved, the process just doesn't work because of the format.

We've spent a lot of time discussing why it doesn't work, and while that's interesting to us, the bottom line is that once we've finished the role Q&A's with healers, we will be ending the Ask the Dev series.

Our goal with Ask the Devs was always to increase interaction with the developers, to provide a direct conduit to their thoughts and process. We're in the planning stages for a new Q&A process that will replace Ask the Devs, and while we're absolutely certain people will continue to be upset we didn't answer every question, we think it will overall be a far more successful approach.


This might sound odd but, thank you. Much drama has been caused by the ATD series, especially with the most recent answers session. I do not know what the best way to do this is, but I do know that people who don't feel they can gain from a topic, seem to seek ways to sabotage it as well. I felt this was the case with ATD 9, and I know this was the case with the bitter tanks, myself included, when ATD 10 started up. I love seeing Blizz posters tell us their plans and answer community issues, even if it isn't always what we want to hear. It shows you guys do care about this game and haven't "finished" with it.

I look forward to the new Q&A plans with hope, but also with trepidation at the possibilities.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
16335
Our goal with Ask the Devs was always to increase interaction with the developers, to provide a direct conduit to their thoughts and process. We're in the planning stages for a new Q&A process that will replace Ask the Devs, and while we're absolutely certain people will continue to be upset we didn't answer every question, we think it will overall be a far more successful approach.
Any plans on answering the Ask CDev thread in the meantime?
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90 Dwarf Warlock
9380
Why can't we just get class Blues again?


Communication between the playerbase and Blizzard has definitely suffered in Cata, but after the insanity of WotLK I can absolutely understand the developers trying to find a better way to communicate.

But as it stands, things are just frustrating. Players aren't really concerned about their issues being addressed, but rather are more concerned that they're even being heard.

I think if you went back to a system where a Blue tried to regularly post on the various class forums, that would build up a relationship between the players and developers a little more and we wouldn't feel so much like we're just flapping in the wind.

This is true. More blue posts in class forums explaining the reasoning behind changes, for instance, would stop a fair bit of complaining (and lead to some more most likely, but it couldn't be worse than getting no explanations/answers at all).
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
06/15/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Tyrion
The much greater issue is that for every class and spec there are issues that are reiterated by the players countless times that they never get feedback on, so they're just left to wonder.

I'd be happy if we got answers to the questions that were selected. And if those answers were actually accurate.
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1 Tauren Druid
0
Blogs - Worst decision ever to communicate with your paying customers.

1. Bring the developers back to the forums where they can communicate directly, and keep the discussion going the way it should be, in a community environment.

2. Enforce the forum rules fully.

3. ???

4. Profit.
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- World of Warcraft
90 Undead Death Knight
12720
I'm glad Blizzard realizes that the Ask the Devs series wasn't working. It was a nice attempt but I don't think it really works to address the concerns of the players.


I do think the biggest concern is just feeling like there's more communication and the playerbase is being heard. A lot of times I feel like this could be solved by simple one or two sentence explanations to go along with various patch notes. Other times, like with enhancement shaman right now, the lack of any statements and lack of changes just makes it feel like all our concerns are falling on deaf ears.

I second the idea of Class blues again. I'm not really sure when or why they went away.
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
I'm not going to bother getting into the specifics of what was answered or why or any fansite articles bashing the process; it's been covered many times before.

But, at the core, I think we agree it's not working. While we could (and do) lament over the reasons why a scheduled Q&A based on question popularity doesn't sit well with people, the bottom line is it can't go on as it is.

We don't expect people will ever be completely happy with any Q&A. Regardless of how they're conducted we'll never get to every question, so there are always going to be complaints that we didn't answer the right ones. But Ask the Devs is different. While there are certainly arguments that answers didn't say the right things, or didn't give a firm answer on how a problem would be resolved, the process just doesn't work because of the format.

We've spent a lot of time discussing why it doesn't work, and while that's interesting to us, the bottom line is that once we've finished the role Q&A's with healers, we will be ending the Ask the Dev series.

Our goal with Ask the Devs was always to increase interaction with the developers, to provide a direct conduit to their thoughts and process. We're in the planning stages for a new Q&A process that will replace Ask the Devs, and while we're absolutely certain people will continue to be upset we didn't answer every question, we think it will overall be a far more successful approach.

It's not our (Shaman) fault is it? /sniffle

06/15/2011 11:18 AMPosted by Haakkon
I second the idea of Class blues again. I'm not really sure when or why they went away.

100% agree




Suggestion: Is it possible to have Dev Discussion sessions? Say you have the community elevate 3-5 members for each class, and then the devs schedule a time to sit down with them in a chat room to just brainstorm together, where players can express their opinions on what is or is not working, and the devs can respond to it with their own opinions?
Edited by Matuk on 6/15/2011 11:22 AM PDT
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89 Night Elf Death Knight
3140

No offense but, the Blood DK Tanking sub-community did not take well the fact that DK Mastery is both:

- In a good place, according to the Dev's

- An actual model for how other Masteries might work for other Tanks (also, from the Dev's)

To add, in the Tanking Forums, we're currently discussing the features of Blood DK's going minimal avoidance, maxing Haste/Mastery and taking Hit/Expertise to prevent misses and maximize what little defense we have.

The spec (Blood DK) needs a quality of life consideration, I think, and so do many others as well, it seems.



1. This isn't really the right thread to be complaining about a specific class.


2. I think the larger point is that you actually got a response. You may not like Blizzards stance on the issue, but at least you know their position and can move on.

The much greater issue is that for every class and spec there are issues that are reiterated by the players countless times that they never get feedback on, so they're just left to wonder.


I feel for those that play Shaman; however, I felt the need to make the post. I can't really explain why. It just seems like the right thing to do.

I honestly hope that Shaman get some workable answers, in the long run.
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85 Tauren Druid
9460
I'm not going to bother getting into the specifics of what was answered or why or any fansite articles bashing the process; it's been covered many times before.

But, at the core, I think we agree it's not working.


You focused your reply on the process / format aspect of this exercise, but that only accounts for a portion of the disappointment players express. The other portion has to do with the quality or nature of the answers themselves.

When players take issue with an answer, there are two possible routes we could go:
1. Blizzard understands the players' point of view but disagrees with it.
2. Blizzard is wrong.

In the first case, the solution is follow-up communication to help players understand (regardless of agreement) Blizzard's viewpoint. In the second case, the solution is internal to Blizzard - to acknowledge its error and correct course.

The problem for me is that neither of these appear to happen as a result of the current format.

As an example of #1, I would cite Blizzard's answer to the question - why have you repeatedly nerfed one of the least effective and least represented arena spec (Moonkin)? (Note this question was asked before Moonkin's *one* viable 3v3 spec was discovered.) Blizzard's answer to this question was - "its not cool to be super-annoying". What does this mean? The moonkin community certainly didn't know. Blogs and fansites lashed out against Blizzard - not without justification - for the obtuse response. Maybe Blizzard had data or reason for their choice. But in the face of such a unintelligible response, all we could do was guess. This was a case where the community team failed in its function to followup and clarify.

As an example of #2, I would cite Blizzard's answer to the question - why do Prot Paladins have SO much more utility than any other tank, and will Feral tanks ever have utility? (The subject of OP.) Blizzard's answer was "well, a bear can innervate so that's basically the same as giving prot paladins the best raid wall in the game". This answer was simply wrong. Factually, measurably, objectively mistaken. The designer who articulated this opinion needs to be informed so that he or she can correct the error via future design choices. Although the community team does not have an obligation to report back to us in this case, I certain hope they relayed the overwhelming community response (which included lambasting from prominent and popular fansites) to the designer who came up with this outrageous response.



The important thing to note is that neither of the above sorts of problems - the most common grievance the community expresses with these responses - has anything to do with the format that you've chosen to focus on Bashiok. It's the substance of the replies which causes these problems.
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62 Dwarf Rogue
730
We've spent a lot of time discussing why it doesn't work, and while that's interesting to us, the bottom line is that once we've finished the role Q&A's with healers, we will be ending the Ask the Dev series.


For what it is worth.... your topics were far too broad. This leaves too much room for people to post "why does my spec suck?" in various forms, and our community votes them up for reasons I will never quite understand.

The majority of questions that made the cut ended up being empty questions with no real possible answers.

I think the idea could be salvaged, you just need to narrow the topic and reserve the right to reject top rated questions if they lead to a fresh rephrasing of previously discussed topics.

Just one random example off the top of my head... back in Wotlk there was a post by GC in the healing forums asking druids if they thought tree form was fun. It turned out to be a pretty epic thread with a ton of different perspectives and a lot of abstract discussion about what makes a character fun to play. I would think that is the type of discussion that can really help devs understand the players, and the players understand the devs.

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85 Night Elf Druid
12205
While we could (and do) lament over the reasons why a scheduled Q&A based on question popularity doesn't sit well with people

Ok...lets.

Once again the community has ruined something good with complaints because they feel it was not going how they would do it.. So instead of getting some direct feedback sent to and from the devs, we get nothing for now. I was really looking forward to class specific Q&As but oh well. maybe with the new thing.

People will complain when you don't do something and when you do something. Maybe that is all the forums are for...complaints.

Bash, I ,for one, loved them and will indeed lament their loss.


While I agree in part that people will complain no matter what, there were some more glaring issues in the Tank ATD compared to many others. The Taunt question from LA, while lamentable that only 7 questions (I think) were even there in total, was definitely not the best to be selected. Furthermore, the Taunt question wasn't even translated properly, it was meant to be a specific question about Righteous Defense, the Paladin "AoE" Taunt, that could still miss unlike the rest. The botched translation makes it sound very crappy that forum space was wasted on such a question: like a Calculus class being told that yes indeed, 2+2 does in fact equal 4.

Then you had the lumped together questions with some of the Mastery information or questions that even included portions we really wanted to see, but without even a nod of affirmation to the very question they quoted. Never mind statements like DK's having a solid Mastery with "no unintuitive stats or weird break points" when they very clearly do, or that Feral Innervate (for all of a single cast of Divine Light worth of mana) is part of our utility package comparable to Paladins.

They could have answered the exact same questions, given the same answers, but with just a tad more detail here (like with Mastery) or a tad more cleaning up there (like with Taunt or Bear Rage generation), and it wouldn't feel... for lack of a better word... slipshod.

The whole thing felt very much like questions were plucked at Date A to be answered. On Date B, various Devs fielded the questions and submitted the answers. On Date C, plucked questions and answers were slapped together and then posted. No one checked that the quoted question asked specifically about X, the answer just doesn't even acknowledge it. Maybe the Dev that answered that question didn't even read the question fully, or was told "Hey there is this one about Bears, and QoL, and survivability, and some stuff, what do you take on that?" and he gave his/her answer and that was put down.

Blame us all you like for ruining such a good thing, but culpability goes both ways here. They handed us the format, we exercised our best ability in participation by up-voting good questions and attempting to bury bad questions like "LOLOL LEGENDARY!?!?" or "LOLOL ROGUE/SHAMAN/MAGE/PRIEST TANK!?!?" and still ended up with some of these questions. That's why the Tank forum has sorta exploded with DK threads as of late, outlining Rune Tetris and RE Gaming explicitly and making me a bit sad that my 2nd Tank is likely going to go untouched for some time as I really would rather not set up an elaborate UI that allows me to watch and react perfectly to my runes but still allows me to keep a good eye on the rest of the fight and my raid.

Questions could have been better fielded, and even the ones they did pick simply answered differently. The Feral utility answer would have been 100% better had they just not even mentioned Innervate, but listed literally anything else or simply nothing at all and left it at Rebirth only. Small things, but small things that matter when this is our only way of feedback interaction with the Developers.
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60 Night Elf Druid
3890
We've spent a lot of time discussing why it doesn't work, and while that's interesting to us, the bottom line is that once we've finished the role Q&A's with healers, we will be ending the Ask the Dev series.


:( I liked the Ask the Devs. I think the main problem was the subjects. If the subject sounded like it included "my class" or "my class's deficiencies/overcomplications", then "my class's" question will be posted. If the subject of the Q&A were puppies, you'd be sure to see some "my class" questions posted as off-topic questions, but you also would get some questions pertaining to puppies and some interesting answers.

I think the lesson is to stay away from the minutia of class mechanics/spells in the question topics, and focus broadly on things like the Firelands Q&A, or appearances, or mounts, or achievements.
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85 Dwarf Shaman
4565
I also think that maybe a bit more time could be spent on the patch notes in giving a little bit more explanation.


All too often the patch notes are filled with things like "The damage of X has been reduced by 10%" with no explanation as to why the change is made. I think this usually just ends up leading to a lot of confusion and unhealthy speculation.

If players could understand why changes are being made, I think they'd feel a lot less animosity towards the developers.

I think some of the recent posts about the Valor -> Justice conversion is a really good example of how things should go. Some players were apparently confused, and we got a good explanation with a little insight.
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85 Human Death Knight
11920
And honestly? The blog format isn't working.

Ghostcrawler has brought up some great discussion topics, but the format is terrible for discussing the actually topics. We get some weird comment system that makes a statement hard to follow, and there's no follow up thoughts in reaction to whatever is discussed.

To give an example:

Ghostcrawler: What if interrupts had longer CDs?
Us: Lots of stuff would need to be rebalanced, but it would be healthier for the game. Have you considered giving a sort of DR or immunity to multiple lockouts, to prevent melee from simply training and locking down a caster? Breathing room was a big point about Cataclysm.

And then it just ends. If GC had made a thread, he could come back and tell us if that would work, maybe discuss what a good length for a longer cooldown would be, and so on.

That is what I miss from WotLK. I do acknowledge the whiney threads asking for GC posts, but they still exist today! Nothing has really changed on the whine front, but the flow of information to players has become tainted and erratic.

I submit this as proof of a valuable and informative thread:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1649/are-dk-tanks-going-to-get-a-buff-soon
Edited by Communism on 6/15/2011 11:39 AM PDT
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1 Troll Priest
0
I'm not going to bother getting into the specifics of what was answered or why or any fansite articles bashing the process; it's been covered many times before.

But, at the core, I think we agree it's not working. While we could (and do) lament over the reasons why a scheduled Q&A based on question popularity doesn't sit well with people, the bottom line is it can't go on as it is.

We don't expect people will ever be completely happy with any Q&A. Regardless of how they're conducted we'll never get to every question, so there are always going to be complaints that we didn't answer the right ones. But Ask the Devs is different. While there are certainly arguments that answers didn't say the right things, or didn't give a firm answer on how a problem would be resolved, the process just doesn't work because of the format.

We've spent a lot of time discussing why it doesn't work, and while that's interesting to us, the bottom line is that once we've finished the role Q&A's with healers, we will be ending the Ask the Dev series.

Our goal with Ask the Devs was always to increase interaction with the developers, to provide a direct conduit to their thoughts and process. We're in the planning stages for a new Q&A process that will replace Ask the Devs, and while we're absolutely certain people will continue to be upset we didn't answer every question, we think it will overall be a far more successful approach.

It may not be working, but quite a few solid questions were still answered =D
I know me n mine have always found a few questions in each ATD that were something that perked our interest.

Glad to hear you'll be maintaining a Q&A approach in some form though, its nice to hear communication from you guys.
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90 Human Warrior
13005
06/15/2011 10:38 AMPosted by Bashiok
Our goal with Ask the Devs was always to increase interaction with the developers, to provide a direct conduit to their thoughts and process.

Back in Wrath of the Lich King, the developers posted on the forums and directly interacted with the playerbase. With Cataclysm, that no longer happens, apparently due to a new Blizzard policy.

Why is this? The CMs are great, but they can't really fulfill the same role that the back-and-forth with Ghostcrawler provided. Instead, we get a secondhand communication that often fails to directly address points.
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85 Night Elf Druid
12205
[quote]
Just one random example off the top of my head... back in Wotlk there was a post by GC in the healing forums asking druids if they thought tree form was fun. It turned out to be a pretty epic thread with a ton of different perspectives and a lot of abstract discussion about what makes a character fun to play. I would think that is the type of discussion that can really help devs understand the players, and the players understand the devs.


And this.

Narrowed topics definitely seem to direct discussion better. An open ATD about Tanking brought... well... all the stuff we saw and resulted in half the questions being pseudo "Tank A does this, but Tank B cannot? WHY!?!" with a Dev response of "Tank B is fine, stuff is balanced, moving on."

A narrow topic on just "What do you believe constitutes Tanking utility?" or "When does a utility skill cross the boundaries of highly situational to semi-useful to must-have? Any examples?" and so on. Then you get nothing but very very focused (but still broad within the subject material) discussion that will touch upon a lot of pet peeve issues or problems or points of discussion. The best part then happens when down the line you get a short synopsis from a Dev based on what he thinks he can comment on, but then you actually get to hear (if they bother with it) if the Devs even consider something like Divine Protection in the same ballpark as Feral Innervate, and perhaps why.

I'm not so naive to believe we can put the Devs on the spot, ask them very very pointed questions and expect a wall-o-text response that outlines not only their thought process but how the development team is approaching the issue along with all the ideas they have rolling around in their heads. We just don't need to be privy to all that information, despite some of us really wanting it, because the general population tends to not "get it" when it comes to making such decisions. But the super broad format allowed for a super broad amount of questions that were answered... super broadly or not at all... such that anyone that actually regularly reads the forums had nothing of value come from the ATD.
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