Why are rogues the least played class?

100 Night Elf Rogue
19305
Aside from stuff like dying while using Killing Spree on Magmaw, I agree. (I also am not a fan of Bandit's Guile; it's a frustrating game of inverse Russian roulette.) I read the "rogue mechanics are so old" argument a lot in the forums, including many times in this thread, and I can't relate to it. I'm nearing three years on this rogue, and I don't immediately slip into a coma each time I hit my Mutilate button. If Blizzard spent time and money redesigning my Assassination rotation, I'd likely still end up mashing 3-3-4-1-1-2-1-1-2-1-1-3 (or some such) on boss fights, it's just that what I'm mashing would have a new name. I don't see why abilities have to be rewrapped in different-looking packages just for the sake of seeming new.


The fact that everything just works seems to lead to a lack of any real desire to innovate on the class. I'm not necessarily complaining because I still love my rogue and I can't fault the designers for not wanting to fix what isn't broken. But I'll admit I got excited during the Cata preview where they said they wanted to move more of our damage from passive to active and then felt severely let down when they went back months later and were like "We're ok with the design because SnD is active."


There's a lot of interdependency in rogue abilties that I think many of the rogues in this thread aren't quite giving Blizzard credit for. Yes, a lot of our (Assassination's) damage is poison damage. On the other hand, a lot of our damage is poison damage because of things like Slice and Dice, the Envenom buff, and Rupture. Wait, Rupture? Yeah. You need to keep Rupture up for the energy regen so you can maximize your Envenom uptime to get the most use out of your Slice and Dice on auto-attacks.

I also think that a lot of players underestimate the way decision making works on a rogue. I say this because I see a lot of rogues that are doing "middle of the pack" DPS when I'm in pugs, and I think it's because they're just not playing very well. So, quick question for the other rogues out there.

You find yourself with:
12 seconds left on Slice and Dice
13 seconds left on Rupture
9 seconds left on your 5-stack of Deadly Poison
4 seconds left on your Envenom buff
4 combo points
50 energy

What should you be doing within the next 3 seconds?

.
..
...

The answer— and I'm not sure this is ever a valid answer for any other class— is nothing.

Neither SND nor Rupture are falling off soon, so you don't need to worry about refreshing them. You already have the Envenom buff up, so don't Envenom again and waste buff time. You have 4 combo points, so don't Mutilate and potentially waste 2. (It's okay to waste 1 potential CP, but never 2.) And you have 50 energy, so you're not going to cap. You can expect to end up with 90-110 by the end of your Envenom buff, which still doesn't cap it, and at which point (not before) you'll Envenom again.

I have a hard time believing rogues are middle of the pack in DPS. I don't see many other classes pulling 23k (or 29k with heroism) DPS on Malacrass. On the other hand, I don't doubt that many rogues don't play the class to its full potential and end up doing suboptimal DPS.
60 Human Rogue
1415
06/20/2011 03:36 PMPosted by Cardoc
This is a topic we discuss a lot. We don't believe it has anything to do with game balance though. Rogues were also less popular than other classes at times when they consistently topped damage meters and dominated PvP. This isn't a trend that seems to rise and fall with current game balance. Overall, we've never seen a strong correlation between which class is considered overpowered and what players are playing. (Note: This is true overall, but if you move to smaller and smaller sample sizes, perhaps Arena teams above or below a certain rating threshold or raids above or below a certain level of progress, then you can see some correlations between power--real or perceived--and popularity.


The reason you dont see that trend, is people dont want to take the time to reroll, lvling is boring...and even with full BOA, and guild boost to xp..still takes way to long. Im slowly getting a hunter up on my current server simply because I want to be semi useful in PVE....

tunneling a boss just to do middle of the pack dps, is not good balance when I bring nothing else to the table. While other classes can sit, turret onto an add, take it out with some good burst, and turn back on the boss without skipping a beat, and they still are ahead of me in dps is crazy... since i literally bring nothing but dps to the table...and a kick. yay?

Either way, once my hunter is lvled, this is one rogue who will be sitting on the side lines most likely.

Killed heroic nef...im a kick bot
Killed heroic Alakir...I can cloak stacks
Got sat in Heroic Chogall...sorry we need someone who can turret...they brought in another warlock...he did less dps than me, but since adds went down faster, and he didnt have target switching issues...they downed heroic chogall in 2 tries.

That is a huge difference. IMO Cata is Bring the class not the player.



This!

The last two encounters in BoT are very bad for a rogue, but if someone look at the damage dealt to the monstruosity at least rogues wouldn't appear bad at all. One of the major problems already pointed out has to do with the penalities that plague rogues when they need to switch targets given their median dps.

Add to that the fact that rogues do not bring much to the tables regarding raid buffs/debuffs with the exception of +spell damage from mutilate, which a warlock can also do to a group of targets, as I don't consider subtlety a raid spec at all.

Also rogues need every type of buffs/debuffs and position themselves properly to perform competitively. I like timing when to come to the front of the boss to split a meteor type of damage but that upsets a lot of raid leaders/healers.

It seems rogues scale well and start more humbly regarding itemization. This is easy to test atm if you do a 5 min dps session on a dummy with similarly geared and skilled melee dps. A buffed rogue sees a lot more dps increase from raid buffs than a warrior, dk or paladin.

That means if you don't have a raid composition with all melee buffs/debuffs available it would seem a wiser choice to bring another melee class than a rogue.

So yeah I agree Cata is bring the class and not the player.







100 Night Elf Rogue
19305
06/20/2011 03:47 PMPosted by Normie
Any encounter that where there is a lot of potential for AoE or physical damage, a rogue will soak it up like a sponge. You have to run away and stop DPSing, or grin and (let the healer) bear it. I'm sure healers would rather see almost any other class.


You do know about Feint, right? As a rogue, you should take about half the damage other classes do during Nef's Crackles or Chimaeron's Feud phase.
85 Blood Elf Rogue
4565

I have a hard time believing rogues are middle of the pack in DPS. I don't see many other classes pulling 23k (or 29k with heroism) DPS on Malacrass. On the other hand, I don't doubt that many rogues don't play the class to its full potential and end up doing suboptimal DPS.


You can believe what you want, but there is sufficient data that shows that two of the rogue trees currently are middle of the road average in terms of DPS.


If you use stateofdps.com, assasination rogues are #11 (26,340) and combat #13 (25,974) behind the #1 marksmanship hunters (29,572). The only melee classes that come before rogues are warriors (fury and arms) and frost dks. Based on utility, flexibility, and flavor, rogues seem to be lacking, particularly vs. other melee. And, I'd contend, being a melee class is heavily penalized by Bliz, i.e. AoE ow near boss, target switches == much less time on target for melee vs. ranged, etc.
85 Blood Elf Rogue
4565

A buffed rogue sees a lot more dps increase from raid buffs than a warrior, dk or paladin.

That means if you don't have a raid composition with all melee buffs/debuffs available it would seem a wiser choice to bring another melee class than a rogue.

So yeah I agree Cata is bring the class and not the player.


I believe this to be accurate, although I haven't simmed it out for a while, but I was suprised at how much more sensitive my rogue seemed to be to buffs than my paladin or my lock.
19 Human Hunter
640
One of the reasons may be lore, too. There's currently no strong Warlock or Rogue role model. One could argue about Mathias Shaw and Garona Halforcen, but they are relatively minor characters.

Paladins have a lot of role models, and is a pretty simple and popular archetype.

Druids aren't a popular archetype, but they are a central part of the game's lore.

Warriors, Mages and Priests are simple archetypes, too.

Hunters are the iconic pet class and have some variations of the class as racial leaders.

DK are Hot Topic material, so it is an easy archetype too. Besides, Thassarian is cool. And there are so many Xxarthazxx variations that it's ridiculous.

Shamans got Thrall. Although I would like to know what spec he's supposed to be. Elemental, I think?

Warlock and Rogues? Where are the good warlocks that help save the day? Or the heroic combat rogue that marches head front into battle and killing sprees a group of enemies?


As I said before, rogue lore is extremely poor in this game. they need to fix Ravenholdt first of all. Beyond what I quoted there is nothing concerning rogues in game lore-wise. they are terribly and weakly supported.

If the rogue class was renamed Assassin , bandit, ninja or Hashishin, you would have tons of new players.

"rogue" isn't well explianed to new players, nor is it properly laid out at any point.
My paladin for example basically pees light and goodness from start to finish, very clear defined role and reason in game.
100 Night Elf Rogue
19305

I have a hard time believing rogues are middle of the pack in DPS. I don't see many other classes pulling 23k (or 29k with heroism) DPS on Malacrass. On the other hand, I don't doubt that many rogues don't play the class to its full potential and end up doing suboptimal DPS.


You can believe what you want, but there is sufficient data that shows that two of the rogue trees currently are middle of the road average in terms of DPS.


Are you looking at stateofdps here? Are you looking at the median values, and noticing that overall, 7/10 of the classes have a spec that falls in the "middle of the pack"? 25k ± 1k contains warrior, mage, druid, DK, rogue, warlock, and paladin. Priests, aff locks, and marks hunters are above it, and they're getting nerfed. Only shamans can't get up to that point at all.
100 Night Elf Rogue
19305
06/20/2011 04:19 PMPosted by Morgnfreeman
Chimaeron's Feud phase


Feint doesn't work on fued phase goo. At least it didn't used to, it might now - been awhile.


Even if Feint doesn't (and I really want to say it does), Cloak sure does.
100 Human Warrior
3715
probly some people find them hard to play.
85 Draenei Warrior
1600
Just thought I'd put in my two cents on the original topic.

I originally played rogue because it was a class with strong damage output, strong control, and strong defensive cooldowns. It was perfectly suited for burst hit-and-run PvP, which made my days on the Battlegrou—ISLAND of Quel'Danas a fun time.

However, with the metagame changes, we've run into some issues.


    Rogue damage is no longer strong compared to health. This makes fights last longer, limited duration defensive cooldowns comparatively weaker, and overall puts the PvP advantage to other classes based around extending the duration of a fight.

    New skills have put rogue metagame as more and more of a CC class: a melee range leather-wearing CC class based on fairly long cooldowns.

    There is exactly one truly viable PvP spec: subtlety. Yet Shadow Dance is a terrible skill. It has never been anything other than that, for many reasons. Two of the most important are that the rogue can easily be CC'ed for the duration, and Nature's Swiftness > Super Heal or Blessing of Protection or Pain Suppression negates it.


All of these reasons have made me shelf my rogue after maining it for nearly three years. Why should I play my rogue when my warrior has more mobility, doesn't have to worry about buggy stealth (pally pet, hunters in general), and deals more damage with abilities that don't require positioning?
2 Gnome Warlock
0
06/20/2011 04:28 PMPosted by Azreluna


Feint doesn't work on fued phase goo. At least it didn't used to, it might now - been awhile.


Even if Feint doesn't (and I really want to say it does), Cloak sure does.


Feint works, just tricky to time unless you're sub.

Cloak on the other hand.. it clears the -hit debuff, but even when active, his caustic slime still hits me and will reapply the hit debuff through cloak.
100 Night Elf Rogue
19305
06/20/2011 04:28 PMPosted by Morgnfreeman
Are you looking at stateofdps here? Are you looking at the median values, and noticing that overall, 7/10 of the classes have a spec that falls in the "middle of the pack"? 25k ± 1k contains warrior, mage, druid, DK, rogue, warlock, and paladin. Priests, aff locks, and marks hunters are above it, and they're getting nerfed. Only shamans can't get up to that point at all.


That's well and good, but how many classes have no speccs which go above middle of the pack? Just because sub was awful dps in TBC and wrath didn't make rogues bad dps, it was just that particular specc. In this xpac, both of our 'competitive' speccs are pretty subpar.


Seven of them. Only hunters, priests, and warlocks have standout specs.
100 Night Elf Rogue
19305
Feint works, just tricky to time unless you're sub.

Cloak on the other hand.. it clears the -hit debuff, but even when active, his caustic slime still hits me and will reapply the hit debuff through cloak.


? Feint's not tricky to time as assassination... Use it when the Feud bar is a little over 3/4 full, cloak when Feint wears off (to avoid the damage more than the debuff), Feint again when it's off cooldown. Glyph Feint and it costs you nothing to avoid 2/3 of the damage from a Feud phase.
100 Night Elf Rogue
19305
06/20/2011 04:35 PMPosted by Mafic
From my point of view, I do not think there is anything wrong with rogue specs being middle of the road in terms of DPS. What I feel is an issue though, is that, as a rogue player I have less control over the damage I do compared to other melee classes/specs, which is a big contributing factor that lowers the fun of the rogue class. I concede that is highly subjective, but probably has some merit given rogue mechanics currently rely on passive damage, and keeping slice and dice active .


Go look at post 221. You're oversimplifying it, and it's not as passive as you might think.
85 Blood Elf Rogue
11015
06/20/2011 01:45 PMPosted by Daxxarri
It's possible that some rogue mechanics aren't as fun as they could be. This is a really subjective issue though


Pretty sure Bandit's Guile is universally hated by everyone.
Edited by Scamp on 6/20/2011 4:54 PM PDT
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