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Posted by Daxxarri
In regards to stealth in general, and this may be more from a pvp/class based aspect..
I dislike the fact its IMPOSSIBLE to get a feral out of stealth with sap, it has to be fan of knives, and extremely lucky, with the change to 4.2 making stealth not go on cd until you go out of it; fan and restealth in a second wont be possible, meaning we will literally NEVER get a feral out unless our first fan is lucky, or the next few are lucky.
They didn't get a speed buff, but their stealth is still superior, i think we should have equal stealth, or atleast something to spec, or glyph to make ours equal.
I also find druid bleeds rather op (on no pvp gear rake and rip will kill anything that cant heal, making arena annoying, or even duels), and general dps to be alot more than i've ever seen any rogue do, meaning that rolling a cat, is a much better option, they still have things like rogue abilities, the only exception being recup, which they can replace by an instant cyclone and a few hots, making the classes essentially the same, minus the ability to be a caster dps, tank, or healer if you're a druid.
I'm not saying i want the classes to be alike, infact, there's certain aspects that are TOO alike, but a cat is better at in most aspects, with the benefit of other things, making a rogue rather obsolete, in my eyes.
I still rather enjoy mine in both pvp and pve, and have for years.
But something needs to change to keep interest in the class
Edited by Sérialsapist on 6/21/2011 2:02 AM PDT
I'm from Shadow Council, a server with an amazing rogue community... At least, that was the case.
From all the rogues that have started with me on this server, there are only 3 that are still active and use their rogues as mains. All the others have rerolled to indeed a DK, druid or Paladin... but the majority of them have all quit.
All people that are now rolling a rogue are doing it indeed for pvp purposes but only for the smokebomb aspect of the game.
Rogues were amazing to play from 1-60 but after you guys started to tweak them (bugging stealth, adding trinkets, DR timers and lowering the stun timers) we are now forced to play a class that looks nothing like what we actually created from day one.
All these changes created a lot of frustrations and with those frustrations you've made a lot of people quit or change...
The current generation of rogues will notice very quickly what their current role is and won't be happy with it either.
This single change would solve all of their target swapping problems, but it'll never happen thanks to PvP. I also doubt Blizz would ever overhaul a class to that extent.
Actually, it really wouldn't solve much. Combo points are hardly the issue with target swapping in PVE.
- Redirect to be redesigned to work like Soul Swap (transfer Combo Points as well as Dots/poisons). Redirect also needs a much shorter CD baseline (30 seconds I'm thinking, to put it on par with 4.2 Soul Swap). Finally, Redirect needs to be useable even without CP's, so you can still transfer DoT's/Poisons/Bandit's Guile.
- OR -
- Reduce Deadly Poison stacks to 1 or 2, while keeping the same overall damage. Making Deadly Poison able to proc the mainhand poison regardless of DP stacks would work too.
- Bandit's Guile removed from the game, or at the very least changed so that it doesn't fall off when you swap targets.
Not to say CP's shouldn't be on the Rogue, because I do agree they should, but the way they work now has hardly anything to do with the target swapping woes we face in PVE.
Edited by Scamp on 6/21/2011 3:00 AM PDT
CPs shouldn't be on the rogue. They're combo points, not power points. Let's not copy paladins after they copied us.
CPs aren't really a big issue, anyway. Just use a finisher before you switch if you don't have Redirect up. If you use Envenom, then switch targets, you're going to stack DP that much faster, and then you just worry about Rupture, which hardly seems deserving of a Soul Swap-style ability.
I've been playing my rogue for a while... A long while in the scheme of wow. Pre BWL I believe, but around that time. I'm still bitter about the vanilla rogue class review. These days I see patch after patch where classes get more "simple adjustments" than we rogues ever got. Still bitter....
Way back then I was important. Like you complain that tanks are so critical these days, healers are so critical these days, back then I was important too. I didn't do much to help the raid, but I did one critical thing that made me so important. I brought home the bacon. I pressed my buttons and stuff died. It died good. Without me, making things die was so much more difficult. I placed the pointy end in the bad guy and it died. These days I'm no longer the solution. Everybody makes stuff die as good as me, I'm the solution to yesterday's problem. I never wanted to be more important than the tanks and the healers, but my contribution to the guild, the raid was as important.
I like the lore behind rogues (the D&D variety) and the playstyle behind rogues (the D&D variety). The wow rogue is as close as you can get to this, but it doesn't cut it. It doesn't come close. It's an imposter.
I used the play a paladin in D2. I had my sword and by god did I swing that thing quick. Then the assassin came along. By golly. A class (closely related to the d&d rogue) and yet the D2 assassin, lore aside, is far closer to the rogue archetype than the wow rogue is. I look back with fond memories of my assassin. I'd shoot around the battle field, kicking stuff and laying traps. And combo points. Combo points! Combo points were physical, you could see them, 'taste' them almost, they had colour and flavour. If I needed health, cobra strike and I'd see the aqua balls forming, is that monster lightning immune? I could phoenix strike the right number of times, SEE the phoenix combo balls merge with the cobra balls. I could see right there around my character how powerful I was becoming. As I adjusted my playstyle to suit the various monsters, it had a real and physical effect on my character. It was tangible.
Instead, in WoW I get 5 red dots. Gotta keep the SnD plate spinning, gotta keep the Rupture plate spinning. Generic strike X gets me my 4-5 dots. Nothing happens. Where's the adjustment? Where's the tangible effect? *snore*
Edited by Thaela on 6/21/2011 4:02 AM PDT
What always amazes me is that rogues have some of the absolute best theory-crafting and number-crunching on EJ, yet so many rogues either don't know about it or don't bother reading it. I've helped so many rogues "fix" their toons over the last year, or at least directing them to the right information, but the drive just isn't there.
Unfortunately, I think rogues typically attract a younger audience who like to name their toon XsupersaiyanX, and they're surprised when they get to 85 and get wrecked in either the pve or pvp realm. Taken seriously, rogues can perform very well in both areas. Sure, they need some tweaking in the target switching / rampup-time department, but as a class they are just fine imho.
the problem i have is that every single time the theory crafters say something it happens, yet every time we get to the mid/end of a tier and we are really not worth the raid spot most of the time for a progression raid due to our horrible scaling, ud think this would be at least acknowledged by now
now im not asking to scale like a warrior (god knows only one class can be that op that it needs nerfs every content patch so it doesn't get off the charts)
but at the same time id like to not need buffs every tier so that i don't get off the charts the other way
I played a rogue through BC and Wrath and I loved it but then in Wrath they Mut come back and it was the most agonizing buff babysitting spec ever and combat did poor damage, then they got rid of hunger for blood and suddenly mut went from being a spec that was a huge pain and hard to manage to being in my opinion the easiest dps priority in the game, seriously get snd up get rupture up and keep them refreshed and pop your two cd's, that's it.
I loved combat and it was my favorite and initially it was King in BC, then fell behind in the start of wrath and though it made a comeback at t10 it was still always a little short of mut. Cata comes out and suddenly combat is this massive fluid cd machine which was cool then they added the abomination talent that is Bandit's Guile which in my mind is the most horribly implemented talent in the game to date. Its not a fun talent and requires similar babysitting like hunger for blood and its not really controllable which is worse, you just have to hope and pray when you get to red stack that your cd's are up and you can spam them.
It was like the week after Cata dropped and I was in a heroic and I just kept switching between Mut and Combat on fights and just didn't like them anymore. I rerolled to fury war and I've been a lot happier and don't regret it.
TLDR: Raiding on a rogue it either boring or annoying.
Rogues are in a tough spot leveling in dungeons. Boss fights are fine. Most instances are AOE-fests which would be quite fun...except rogues don't get Fan of Knives until 80. This leaves us far behind on dps and more importantly far behind the fun factor.
Throwing this out there as one reason for the lack of rogues. You gotta really love the rogue to stick with it if you are leveling mostly in dungeons.
"Wheres your dps rogue?"
"Kick the rogue"
"I don't have aoe"
"Not until 80"
Edited by Jvstice on 6/21/2011 7:06 AM PDT
Can someone explain to me why an ASSASSIN has to build up DPS? They're the definition of burst DPS yet they play the exact opposite in the game. It's mindbogglingly backwards.
It made sense in vanilla when rogues could literally one-shot people, but now they hover behind someone's back and stab them for hours on end like some sort of a pest. In PvP they've gone from the killers in the shadows to a support class that throws around blinds, smoke bombs, dismantles, kicks, crippling, etc. to keep the real DPS off their healers and the rest of the team. (And all of that utility is lost in a raid setting). It's a complete betrayal of expectations and likely why so few people play them now.
Killing spree is a perfect example of what an assassin should play like, yet it's in the combat tree where you would expect a slower, drunken-master sort of attack. And don't even get me started on BG, that talent exacerbated the build-up problem beyond redemption for combat.
And then there's the mediocre DPS.
And then there's the lack of utility compared to their melee brethren. Wars getting rallying cry in 4.1 simply added insult to injury.
I honestly believe the whole class needs the major revamp like hunters got. It's a disorganized mess that really needs to be sorted out sooner rather than later, and I'm hoping the blue response is a subtle signal that Blizz is working on it.
Edited by Inept on 6/21/2011 7:18 AM PDT
rogue mage where ment to be top dps well at 60 , 70 most of 80 they have been but seeing a spriest shammy or boomkin out do me most raid bosses is getting tireing atm rogue have no buffs are mid table in dps why bring one any more to a raid seeing most guild are 10 mans now all ya bring is clases that buff the raid or can bres oh thats right we have one buff in a pvp spec crit gg why make a buff for pvp is this all the game has come to now PVP if a class is op for pvp they get nefed but who cares if stuffs up pve for that class stop making the game around pvp most ppl that play wow are pve ppl but all blizz do is worry about pvp why not make a new game for ppl just to pvp so ya can leave wow they way it was at 60 fun to pve and then go do a bg with friends after a raid for fun not bace wow around pvp .
55 Worgen Death Knight
It is probably due to the fact that rogues in PvP HAVE to be behind the target to deal any effective damage and the fact that people jump around while moving all over the place (Keyboard turners/clickers and binders all do this) and stand with their back against a wall in which makes rogue damage/pressure non existent and non effective because all you can do is spam hemorrhage, also latency makes these mechanics worse too. This breaks the class and is horribly not fun at all as compared to the other melee classes.
Being forced to PvP in subtlety because all the other specs were stripped of their cooldowns/access to cooldowns and general effectiveness also adds to the pain. Especially while being a leather melee class that is relatively squishy.
The subtlety rotation/abilities feel really clunky too and the spec has turned into nothing but spamming abilities. (Lol spambush, backstab and hemorrhage).
Players see the class is cool because it can stealth and begin playing it and realise the above mentioned, then tend to reroll or just PvE.
A lot of us miss Assassination in PvP. :(
Edited to put a quote in.
Just like casters spin in circles to avoid Rogue Backstabs, or stand with backs to walls/ledges while being infused with crippling poison? Casters abuse mechanics more so than melee quite often, not to add that melee suffers from position lag, casters do not unless you're playing with 1k+ ping, and at that rate, I think it's time to get rid of the AOL dial-up. Personally, I think slows should lower the mouse turn speed as well, but this game is pretty unrealistic as it is, so don't hold your breath.
Also nerfing rogue survivability cooldowns makes us sit in stealth until the cooldowns are up because we have next to no survivability without our cooldowns, which makes you feel pretty useless. Especially while being trained.
Edited by Resentfully on 6/21/2011 8:11 AM PDT
They should revamp Assassin's Resolve.
Instead of giving +20% damage to melee attacks they should make give a large bonus to Mutilate, Backstab, and Envenom instead. Shift damage out of passive sources and into controllable sources, like they promised.
Also, they need to make the additional damage Mutilate does when the target is poisoned...not require the target to be poisoned anymore.
Edited by Scamp on 6/21/2011 7:59 AM PDT
I stopped playing this rogue, who was my main for years.
The class IMO is very boring and all three specs really seem the same to me. Assassination should have been the poison spec only. Combat should be an awesome toe-toe fighter and not even built around stealth (think light melee warrior, prince of persia, etc). Sub should be the stealth/control spec. And yet we have really nothing of the sort really
Combat is absolutely horrible vs anyone in PvP and it's only for PvE and even then is lack luster.
The class has hardly any survival without it's cooldowns and yet mages, a cloth class, along with everyone else has more survival then us.
We have to come out of stealth (which is usually only at the beginning), along with being behind the target (which is tough in pvp), and we lose all sorts of damage because of switching targets.
Our 5 point system should be on US, not the target...we could then switch targets at ease without losing everything we've built up.
It's also ridiculous the damage and survival of feral druids who are a HYBRID class. Why play a rogue when you can play a feral druid and do everything 3x better...from stealth, to damage, to survival, to escape.
Edited by Guges on 6/21/2011 8:09 AM PDT
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