Why are rogues the least played class?

2 Gnome Warlock
0
Personally, I feel a big part of the problem is that rogues in general seem to have lost more than they've gained going from tbc -> wrath -> cata.

Passive sources for our damage remain unchanged.
Rotations (for combat and assassination) remain largely unchanged.
Mechanics remain unchanged - or worse still - have changed negatively (BG I'm looking at you).

Combat used to be a reasonable target swapper - poisons were decent, but not a primary damage source, rupture wasn't essential to dps (not that it is now). You could swap targets and nuke with a small ramp up curve for dps. Nowadays though, with bandit's guile factored in, with energy regen as crazy high as it is, target swapping has become a nightmare for the spec. Assassination was regarded as the tunnel vision spec in wrath, the poor target swapper. It has also gotten worse at target swapping thanks to venomous wounds in part, but, ridiculous as it is, it's now considered the BEST rogue spec for multi-target damage. That's how bad combat has gotten.

Our aoe used to be strong (VERY strong) - now it's mediocre / terrible / laughable depending on spec.

And honestly, I feel as though I've been lied to.

"Less passive damage sources" - Here's +30% ap / agi / +20% melee damage passive spec bonuses.

"Less reliance on cooldowns" - Here's 3 new cooldowns!
Being serious on this point though - They did promise us that we would be less reliant on our cooldowns. Making prep a sub only talent seemed like a step toward that goal. But instead, all that achieved was to prove that our class is still incredibly cooldown reliant. Any spec without prep is not pvp viable currently. The moment a mutilate rogue could not reach prep was the moment pvp-mut died. Nothing was done to change this, nothing was given to counter this (quite frankly) crippling loss. If anything, we're more cooldown reliant than ever - to the point where they're forcing shared cooldowns on our abilities now.

We may have been fun to play 5-7 years ago, but the truth is, we haven't evolved as a class in general, and when something goes for so long unchanged, (or again in the case of combat - actually gotten worse due to horrible design choices) it gets BORING. And that's what rogues have become.

Boring.

Old.

Outdated.

We play like a vanilla class still. We're a relic of an older paradigm, and we don't really fit in with the modern game right now. We're the square shape being forced into a round hole, and it doesn't feel right.

Sorry for the rant.
Edited by Kaize on 6/21/2011 6:45 PM PDT
This is a topic we discuss a lot. We don't believe it has anything to do with game balance though. Rogues were also less popular than other classes at times when they consistently topped damage meters and dominated PvP. This isn't a trend that seems to rise and fall with current game balance. Overall, we've never seen a strong correlation between which class is considered overpowered and what players are playing. (Note: This is true overall, but if you move to smaller and smaller sample sizes, perhaps Arena teams above or below a certain rating threshold or raids above or below a certain level of progress, then you can see some correlations between power--real or perceived--and popularity.)

We do know that a lot of rogues appeared to reroll DK, at least when the class was first introduced. We also think rogues were more popular back in the day before flying mounts and instance-teleportation, where ganking someone out in the wilderness was more common. We saw a surge in the popularity of hybrid classes, especially druids and paladins, as running heroic dungeons became something nearly every player did instead of a more dedicated minority.

It's possible that some rogue mechanics aren't as fun as they could be. This is a really subjective issue though, and it's trivial to find members of every class and spec declaring that their character is clunky and ill-conceived while some other class or spec appears sleek and shiny. We made some changes (i.e. stealth movement speed) to try and make some of the rogue mechanics more fun and this is the kind of thing we'll continue to keep an eye on.

Plenty of players love rogues though. We don't want to give the perception that the class is dying or anything like that. It's just less commonly played than say paladin, which is probably why you see so many paladin-related threads on all three forums.


Translation: "Yeah, less people play rogues we cant figure out why mens, kthxbye <randomly deletes legit rogue thread for the luls>"
85 Worgen Rogue
2420
Make it so Rogues stack Combo Points on themselves. Counter this by making it so that when a Rogue leaves combat, he loses all of his Combo Points (since he is no longer "Combo-ing it up), but still allow SnD and Recup to be active as a 1 point value for 10 seconds. This way, a Rogue REALLY needs to choose between staying in combat long enough to take advantage of his CP's, or flee and lose everything he's built.

Here's that part where I throw out random ideas that would probably not work:

All combo-point attacks that Rogues do should be categorized based on three attack types (Perhaps Assassin, Combat, and Subtle? Hur hur). These three attack types will have their own unique Combo Point Symbol (Green for Assassin, Red for Combat, and Blue for Subtle). Based on what attacks the Rogue does will change the effect of of the finisher the Rogue performs. A Rogue MUST use at least two different CP's to gain a bonus effect, and a result in a tie will take prioty on your finisher based on your main talent spec (4 Combo Points, two being green and two being red, will always result in Combat taking effect if the Rogue is speced Combat).

For example, make the main "Damage Finisher" (Eviscerate/Envemon) change based on how you stacked your CP's. If you have more Green combo points than the others, you would perform "Envemon". if you have more Red combo points, you would perform "Eviscerate", and Blue Combo Points could perform an average damaging attack that also increases the current "tic" speed of all bleed effects on the target (does NOT reduce their timer).

Eviscerate: Deals Damage per Combo Point
Green Dominant: Casts "Envemon", minus the poison apply buff (see SnD).
Red Dominate: highest damaging attack, and increases damage to target by 2% for 10sec.
Blue Dominate: Doubles the speed bleeds tick, while maintaining their bleed duration on target for 5 seconds.

Slice and Dice: Increases attack speed (X based on number of CP's)
Green: Increases your chance to apply poisons with Auto Attack while SnD is active by X%
Red: While SnD is active, reduce the energy cost of your CP Abilities by X%
Blue: While SnD is active, your attacks ignore X Armor (stacks with Armor debuffs)

Recuperate: Restores 3% health every 3 seconds. (Timer based on CPs)
Green: Causes 3% damage caused by DoTs to instead heal the Rogue while Recup is active
Red: Reduce damage caused by the Rogue by 6% while Recup is active
Blue: Reduce the cooldown of Vanish, Evasion, and Preperation by 1 second per health tick while Recup is active.

Give each main spec a unique CP generating attack and a finisher for themselves.
Edited by Skithiryx on 6/21/2011 6:32 PM PDT
85 Troll Rogue
7545
There are so many reasons that rogues are now the redheaded stepchild of the game. Originally they were the glass cannons that could stunlock in pvp and kill before anyone got out of stunlock. PVE, they were good as well.

...Then came the nerfbat. PVP nerfbat. The PVP nerfbat affected PVE of course, as always. Every time there's a PVP nerfbat, there's fewer rogues. Why? Because as many have said here, other classes still have their bells and whistles, while rogues are steadily losing every last thing they had as an advantage in any field.

Rogue survivability is a joke. They used to say that hunters wore mail because they needed it in case anything got to them at close range where they couldn't shoot. Now? Hunters can shoot at close range and still have mail. Rogues still stay in leather. Now they're taking even more survivability away with 4.2 because of what? You guessed it...pvp.

Rogue damage is subpar. They used to say hybrids did less damage because they had so much more utility than pure classes. Now? Hybrids have the damage + the utility. Rogues can't even spec into another class type as a hybrid can, so they have only one tool in their toolbox and it's rusty.

The designers don't seem to GIVE something when they TAKE AWAY something else. I do not quite understand why. Maybe rogues should get to wear mail so they have a little more survivability in PVE. Maybe rogues should have more damage to counter their lack of role versatility and utility.

As an example, why would anyone prefer to bring a rogue over a cat druid to a PVE raid when the cat druid has far more maneuverability, can use their opener repeatedly during a long fight along with gaining positioning with a single button (feral charge) without needing to spec into it (like shadowstep in sub)? They can also battle rez, do emergency tranquility, even innervate (though yes, their innervate is being nerfed a touch). Cat dps currently runs neck and neck with rogues, along with all their nifty utility. Cats can also even cc in combat if needed (entangling roots).

I think what Blizzard needs to do, if they're taking everything else away for PVP, is to put the cannon back in, hardcore. Give us more damage to balance for what is taken away so we do contribute as much to the raid as a hybrid class does currently.

I have never understood why they have to nerf PVE while they nerf PVP anyway. Can't they just say 'this skill does x in pvp and y in pve'.

This is my main character. I loved playing a rogue back in the days of marathon AVs, and for the most part I still somewhat enjoy the way the class is played rotationally. I may not be the best PVE player of a rogue in the world, but when other dps classes can outdps me and my rotation in blues (in the case of hunters and dks) or simply have much more dynamic utility (like cat druids), it does make me wonder why I bother.

They say that in 4.2 we're getting a damage increase. I'm wary of this. A teensie damage increase isn't going to make up for what was stripped away (survivabiity) in PVP and PVE. A little extra crowd control isn't going to make up for it either (blind), when others already had the goodies AND the damage.

If Blizzard really wants to help rogues out, they'll say 'what utility and survivability does a rogue have compared to other DPS classes in the game' and take what they learn is lacking in a rogue and fix the disparity instead of only taking things away for PVP reasons.
Edited by Kadivya on 6/21/2011 6:44 PM PDT
100 Troll Rogue
9630
basically how I think rogues should play

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2711911351

obviously it would need tweaking but its a pretty good layout for my vision.

warning long

TLDR, rogues should have more combo builders that are used to increase damage dealt or for utility purposes.
Edited by Redfang on 6/21/2011 6:50 PM PDT
85 Undead Rogue
0
Want to know why nobody is playing rogues anymore? Pretty simple.

We are by the far the class that is most penalized in PVE because of our mechanics in PVP. Everything we need in PVE is kept from us because it would hurt some random level 30 guy on a PVP server.

Can we burst? No. Can we target switch without losing all our dps? No.

So we don't get to do top dps in raids anymore. But wait there's more.
What's our role in raids? We get to interrupt! Everyone loves that job right?

It gets even better. Blizzard has baked into our new set bonus the requirement to tricks every 30 seconds for a dps benefit. So this is what we have to look forward to. Doing interrupt rotations while in a tricks rotation. Fun right?

It's so bad that some guilds including mine have one raiding rogue left. Good luck with that tricks rotation when you're the only rogue.

Does Blizzard seriously think bad dps isn't a reason why so many people went from rogue to DK?
85 Undead Rogue
0
One more thing.

There's a *really good* analysis of how rogue mechanics can be improved on EJ. It's in Aldriana's blog. Trust me he knows his class.

Blizzard acknowledges a problem.. great! Is there hope?

Only if they are willing to find some answers.

http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/10672-aldriana/
85 Human Paladin
1915
Never read such a collection of absolute bull#%@!. Just helps show the complete lack of concerne or care concerning the rogue class...
90 Blood Elf Hunter
7610
Can I have a ranged, physical dps rogue tree so I can play one? Please?
23 Human Warrior
170
Having 2/3 of your damage come from autoattack and poison procs sucks. I'm sure it will stay this way so long as pvp and pve are one game. New abilities in each expansion seem to be primarily intended for pvp. Look at smokebomb. It's one of the coolest and most rogue like new abilities rogues have ever gotten but it has little to no use in pve. The other day I was wondering what the spell animation looks like so I had to go to youtube to see it because I've never seen a rogue use it (my rogue is still 80).

When I consider going back to my rogue I think about what spec I'd play and nothing is appealing:

Assassination: Heavy emphasis on poison damage but that just means you hit envenom instead of evis. No real gameplay effects from poison. A 31 pt talent that in pve is just "increases damage by x for y." Boring. Terrible mobility.

Combat: Revealing strike is boring and it's the only change to combat's rotation in the game's history. Bandit's Guile is not fun. Killing Spree is too frustrating for the reward. Terrible mobility.

Subtlety: Has my favorite ability rogues have ever gotten (shadowstep)... too bad it's never been viable outside of gimmicks. I have no problem with positional attacks. They are a staple attack of the rogue archetype but in this game you only feel punished when you can't get your target's back instead of rewarded when you do get your target's back. Annoyingly complex rotation.
100 Night Elf Rogue
9125
Make it so Rogues stack Combo Points on themselves. Counter this by making it so that when a Rogue leaves combat, he loses all of his Combo Points (since he is no longer "Combo-ing it up), but still allow SnD and Recup to be active as a 1 point value for 10 seconds. This way, a Rogue REALLY needs to choose between staying in combat long enough to take advantage of his CP's, or flee and lose everything he's built.

Here's that part where I throw out random ideas that would probably not work:

All combo-point attacks that Rogues do should be categorized based on three attack types (Perhaps Assassin, Combat, and Subtle? Hur hur). These three attack types will have their own unique Combo Point Symbol (Green for Assassin, Red for Combat, and Blue for Subtle). Based on what attacks the Rogue does will change the effect of of the finisher the Rogue performs. A Rogue MUST use at least two different CP's to gain a bonus effect, and a result in a tie will take prioty on your finisher based on your main talent spec (4 Combo Points, two being green and two being red, will always result in Combat taking effect if the Rogue is speced Combat).

For example, make the main "Damage Finisher" (Eviscerate/Envemon) change based on how you stacked your CP's. If you have more Green combo points than the others, you would perform "Envemon". if you have more Red combo points, you would perform "Eviscerate", and Blue Combo Points could perform an average damaging attack that also increases the current "tic" speed of all bleed effects on the target (does NOT reduce their timer).

Eviscerate: Deals Damage per Combo Point
Green Dominant: Casts "Envemon", minus the poison apply buff (see SnD).
Red Dominate: highest damaging attack, and increases damage to target by 2% for 10sec.
Blue Dominate: Doubles the speed bleeds tick, while maintaining their bleed duration on target for 5 seconds.

Slice and Dice: Increases attack speed (X based on number of CP's)
Green: Increases your chance to apply poisons with Auto Attack while SnD is active by X%
Red: While SnD is active, reduce the energy cost of your CP Abilities by X%
Blue: While SnD is active, your attacks ignore X Armor (stacks with Armor debuffs)

Recuperate: Restores 3% health every 3 seconds. (Timer based on CPs)
Green: Causes 3% damage caused by DoTs to instead heal the Rogue while Recup is active
Red: Reduce damage caused by the Rogue by 6% while Recup is active
Blue: Reduce the cooldown of Vanish, Evasion, and Preperation by 1 second per health tick while Recup is active.

Give each main spec a unique CP generating attack and a finisher for themselves.


This man....needs an office.

I actually like this way of thinking. It really livens up the playstyle and allows for some "on the spot" decision making an allows for adaptation.

Sure it needs some hammering out but I like the direction.

There is also another mechanic that has been used in other MMOs. That is the "combonation attack" method.

Where say you use...SS

Then from SS you can use any other ability but if you use say Revealing Strike, Eviscerate, or "Attack #3" you get a minor bonus depening on which you use (Using RV may give you a damage buff, Evicerate may debuff your foe in some way..etc.). Using any ability other than those 3 after SS starts a new rotation (i.e. no buff/debuff)

Then from that attack if you use "Final attack #1" or "Final attack #2" you get a large bounus in some way, again depending on which attack you used.

This of course would completly replace the CP system and Finishers setup but its an idea.
19 Worgen Rogue
70
We do know that a lot of rogues appeared to reroll DK,

LOL

world of roguecraft never forget
20 Blood Elf Hunter
0
Want to know why nobody is playing rogues anymore? Pretty simple.

We are by the far the class that is most penalized in PVE because of our mechanics in PVP. Everything we need in PVE is kept from us because it would hurt some random level 30 guy on a PVP server.

Can we burst? No. Can we target switch without losing all our dps? No.

So we don't get to do top dps in raids anymore. But wait there's more.
What's our role in raids? We get to interrupt! Everyone loves that job right?

It gets even better. Blizzard has baked into our new set bonus the requirement to tricks every 30 seconds for a dps benefit. So this is what we have to look forward to. Doing interrupt rotations while in a tricks rotation. Fun right?

It's so bad that some guilds including mine have one raiding rogue left. Good luck with that tricks rotation when you're the only rogue.

Does Blizzard seriously think bad dps isn't a reason why so many people went from rogue to DK?


Quoted for truth.
5 Undead Rogue
0
I've heard people say this numerous times in forums. Why is this?

Is it because we can only DPS and we are middle of the pack in terms of raid performance?

is the class too hard to play in PVP effectively?

Go...

because the rogue class in rift is twenty times better
85 Blood Elf Rogue
7625
If I wanted to play a warrior that did less damage in PvE I'd play Arms.

If I wanted to play with a melee support role in PvP I'd play a DK.

If it weren't for my achievs/titles I"d play something else.

@Blizz Why are warriors the eternally overtuned ones?
@Blizz How is it so hard to balance rogues ahead of warriors in PvE (5%? tax what?)
@Blizz Middle of the pack isn't good enough for the ONLY melee pure in a ranged favoring game.
90 Worgen Rogue
0
I think the biggest issue for me bring my rogue into the raid is that my buffs are covered. As being a melee class seems to be weaker at the moment and that other classes bring the same buffs the gain from having a rogue in a 10 man comp just dose not fit. The times just don't have room for us anymore. There is a better class with higher end numbers that bring the same buffs and don't take as many hits as we do when it comes to performance in more complex fights.

i.e(fights with adds; a rogue can be quite potent after there stack of 5 Deadly poison is up and they have had enough energy to fan 5 + times, but lets face it a DK seaming HB is better off then the slow progression of our aoe).

There are problems with rogues just like every other class. The point I see everyone missing is that the class brings nothing unique at least of the PvE side of things.

When cata came into being I was excited so much in fact that I reserved my position as rogue in our raid comp and was excited to play the class hoping all the changes would be exciting and new and more innovative ones would come into being as the expansion progressed. I just feel that Blizz sat back on this one though they were in a pretty decent spot toward the end of Wrath and left them alone. A few new moves with barley any real use in PvE we got left out in the cold.

I love my rouge and there is just no room to play him anymore and the saddest fact is that I don't even want to. The stale old moves Ive been spamming for the past few expansions need some new polish and maybe some more design work to how the class feels when being played. Another good example I'd like to sight is Reveling strike. Such an interesting mechanic that is only for combat.

I'd like to see some work on your end Blizz to make rogues more fun in a PvE environment throw us a bone here were not asking for heroic leap we just don't want to be 1112 anymore. The pvp is something I cant discuss since I haven't had much time with it since the expansion.
Edited by Yarostsnips on 6/21/2011 9:20 PM PDT
85 Worgen Rogue
14540
I play a rogue, I have an alt rogue in the 50's. I enjoy the class but being beat by DKs, Feral Druids, Warriors in raid meters is just frustrating. We bring nothing to the table except our damage (some could argue we bring a raid debuff but we don't bring soulstone, heroism, food/water, raid buffs, b-rez). When you are taking tons of damage, having classes on your throat with damage and aren't able to do anything else for the raid, what's the point of bringing us?

TotT got nerfed to the ground to make "Tanks better Tanks" and now our four piece set bonus for T12 is forcing us to use TotT on other classes increasing there damage if you're the only rogue.

Give us something unique and increase our bloody damage, it's all we have.
90 Gnome Mage
10630
You know, it's hard to read all this and think anything other "maybe it's because the mentality of the kind of person who plays a rogue is such that EVERYTHING is broken and they're ALWAYS miserable, so they just quit."

Rogues can wreck the %!#! out of almost anything in 1v1, and the things they can't just destroy has absolutely 0 chance of killing them if the rogue REALLY wants to survive. There were times past when that wasn't true. But now, if you really want to live as a rogue, and something killed you, YOU failed. The other person wasn't lucky or good, you were bad. Now some of you are going to say I don't know wtf I'm talking about, but the funny thing is, the ones that protest the most, in their deepest heart, know goddamned well what I'm talking about, and they know I'm right.

Rogues do VERY good dps. They may not be #1, but they sure the hell ain't #30, either.

And even when rogues were hard core #1, they STILL weren't happy.

Rogues are fine. I have one, I enjoy playing on it. I have a warrior, I enjoy that, a pally, a druid, a shammy, pretty much everything this game offers, and I enjoy each their own way.

If you can't, then I'm sorry to hear that. Well, no, that's a lie, I'm not sorry to hear that. That's your bag, not mine.

Rogues are absolutely fine. Absolutely fine. They are competitive in pve, they are competitive in pvp. They are no more boring than any other class, they are no more complex than any other class, they are fine.

Get over yourselves, and play your class, and enjoy it, or pick something else.
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