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Rogue gameplay hasnt really changed since BC, since from BC to Cata the only thing i do differently in pvp is recup, and in pve its recup/redirect. Apart from those 2 things the gameplay of rogues hasnt changed, its the same with locks! then you look at warriors and mages and all the cool things they get every Xpac and you think why do i play a class that never gets anything cool when i could play others that gets something super awesome every Xpac.
Rogues are absolutely fine. Absolutely fine. They are competitive in pve, they are competitive in pvp. They are no more boring than any other class, they are no more complex than any other class, they are fine.
Bad troll, bad. It's like you didn't even read that rogues have minimal burst and poor target switching in raids. It's like you didn't even realize that most raid fights in Cata require lots of target switching and/or off target time which punish all melee but especially rogues. But since you're a troll I guess all that doesn't matter.
Edited by Faiyd on 6/21/2011 9:50 PM PDT
Rogues are the nostalgia class. They occasionally get great moments to look back upon and then drudge their way through life until the next moment.
I kinda find it odd that that large blue response could be stated as we don't care and still have the same context.
Want to know why nobody is playing rogues anymore? Pretty simple.
Yep, I agree 100%.
Essentially *every* problem we have in PVE right now is because Blizzard is too afraid it will break something in PVP, and in turn its making us more and more useless in PVE. But the worst part is, it really seems like its just us that are stuck in the position. Warriors, DK's, Mages, and Hunters are all allowed to have burst and none are penalized for for target swapping...AND 3/4 of those clases out DPS us. Here we sit with 3 specs that all require ridiculous ramp-up, punish us for target swapping, and reward us with mediocre damage. It's complete bull****, plain and simple. And the fact that the devs have nothing to say on the matter only compounds it. Even the top players and theorycrafters are starting to question what the hell the devs are thinking, but we still have yet to hear a response.
And yes, it does indeed feel like we are only in the raid as a support class now. All we contribute is interrupts and Tricks, and as time goes on more and more people get fed up with it.
Why are rogues so upset about PVE?
Your clone combo points are better than our original combo points, though.
Why are rogues so upset about PVE?
To be fair, I see as many ret paladins as I do rogues. Both playstyles kinda blow imo for pve.
As much as I'm disappointed with Blizz's response here (there are obvious balance issues that have been blatently ignored), I will still refuse to re-roll a bloody hybrid or ranged pure just to faceroll to the top of the meters.
I've always been a rogue and I love it, the fact that there are less of us only makes the really awesome rogues stand out from the bunch even more.
I see it as a challange rather than a lost cause.
Really good/talented rogues are still totally competitive, you just have to be a much better player than everyone else to ensure your raid spot...... BRING IT!..
Trade you my 4.5 second combo point that stacks on us for your insanely fast building combo point that stacks on them.
You only have three to go though....and you have many many talents that let you instantly get three or use your attacks as if you had 3.
Trade us that too and ill take it.
Also play combat for a while and see how just "insanely fast" it can be...
Edited by Timat on 6/21/2011 11:50 PM PDT
We randomly get 3 according to the RNG gods.
But...prot isnt ment to kill people..
And actually I do have an 85 pally and have played pre-cata prot before (Ret/Holy now)
Edited by Timat on 6/21/2011 11:58 PM PDT
I still think Tyiako summed up many of our issues pretty well back on page 8 (before the blue post).
TLDR: Any number of reasons:
Questing, Farming, 5-mans, PVP and somtimes Trash are the only places where the rogue abilities come life. I mean heck even after raiding i usually go and quest to just to get the feel for the class again.
Edited by Slateridge on 6/22/2011 1:10 AM PDT
I'll suggest them again:
(1) Throw as an instant (ie. on the run) but on both GCD and Weapon Speed CD. Will help Mut/Combat mobility (ranged snare), won't do anything for Sub (already has it with HaT/Premed -> DT, and no improvement talents). It's also something to do while eternally snared/slowed and gives some nice raid utility.
(2) Combo points on the Rogue. Keep Redirect (20s CD?) for the Combat Rogues or change/fix Bandits Guile.
(3) Implement player pickpocketing. NOT FROM THEIR BANK/BAGS!!! Just from a mob-like respawning "pocket" that they never see. Require the PvP flag to be up to attempt it. It'd be a GREAT challenge and wouldn't hurt anybody.
(4) Throw some traps around dungeons and maybe RBGs. Consider bringing swirly ball back.
(5) This one is important: Make tier 1 & 2 talents of each tree equally desirable to off-spec. Lack of choice = boring.
(6) Sub needs more sustained damage for PvE, provide a mechanic for a single opener per 20-30s (one rotation of SnD/Recup/etc). Shadow Step is a good candidate (ie "allows next combo move within 3 seconds to be an opener). That increases the pace, procs Initiative and Find Weakness, and provides for a complex and interesting rotation. It also won't OP PvP (silence on DR).
(7) Improved Expose Armor is a worthless talent. NO ONE take it. Mut's biggest complaint right now is that it's booooooooooring. Replace IEA with something INTERESTING (Mut only has Cold Blood, Sub has Prep/Premed/ShadowStep/even Dance since it's not just a passive damage modifier like Vendetta).
(8) Combat Potency is RNG and Combat Rogues are complaining of energy capping. Make it a Proc Per Minute (PPM) mechanic. That'll help even out energy gains for all Combat Rogues and allow reduce the penalty for a slow OH without penalizing Rogues who like a fast OH.
(9) Celinne suggestion for Killing Spree: Blade Flurry on, KSpree as now; Blade Flurry off, KSpree current target. -------->>>>>> You might be able to make this talent more interesting by letting a player decide WHEN to teleport within a given short timeframe.
I think that'd all go a loooooooooong way toward making Rogues not just more viable, but more fun ... and without pushing them over other classes.
Here's a few more:
(10) Remove the stealth requirement of Premeditation. Unlike PvP Rogues, PvE Rogues can't slink off and re-stealth during a boss fight, the DPS loss is too high. They have to rely on Vanish(2m)/Prep(5m), so can't use this great ability often. This would work GREAT in concert with #6 above (more forgiving rotation irl combo points).
(11) Bring back craft-able poisons. Keep DP/IP/WP/MN/CP at poison vendors, just allow players with certain professions to craft unique/different poisons for PvE content. I'm sure plenty of raid buffs could be pulled out of this, and maybe a few quests/acheivements/etc. Again, IT HURTS NO ONE.
(12) Having two defensive CDs, Evasion and Combat Readiness is redundant. yes, I know CR works infinitely better than Evasion, but it's still two different button binds on two different CDs to essentially do the same thing, reduce incoming damage. Get rid of one, reduce the CD on the other, buff/nerf as appropriate. Few will care if it's not a 80-85 ability, most everyone plays at level cap anyway. <-- If done properly, this shouldn't affect game balance, just reduce Rogue keybinds/CDs by 1.
(13) Expose Armor is currently nearly worthless. Have it stack with other armor reducing abilities. That's a nice little raid bonus and a reason to bring Rogues along ... and does absolutely noting to PvP balance.
EDIT2: Here's one from another thread.
(14) Rogue survivability too high? Don't nerf CloS (that's overkill), instead force a choice. Swap Improved Recuperate into Combat tier 2. Result: Quickening, Improved Recuperate, Elusiveness: Pick 2. This suggestion in line with #5 above, making Rogue tier 1 & 2 talents equally desirable for off-specing.
Edited by Madcapmcgee on 6/22/2011 4:11 AM PDT
I don't enjoy playing my rogue, but just do it because I have been for over 6 years now, and don't really intend to just cut that kind of time investment short this far in.
Rogue mechanics are, and always have been, pathetic. No matter what spec I play, I feel like I'm basically an affliction lock, maintaining rotations without the excitement of seeing big numbers or even major cooldowns. Vanilla was a write off, since you could macro any class completely. TBC almost every class got to spam 1 button and see huge numbers, where rogues had to, as usual, maintain SnD, rupture, and eviscerate when possible. Wrath, we got some fun with HAT, but how fast was that trashed? One month into Naxx? Cata, yay, I get to maintain rupture, SnD, AND envenom uptime now. Aside from killing spree (which also got nerfed), all of our CDs are passive damage increases or give us the ability to spam harder. @*@#, I miss when Riposte would light up on my bars in PvP and I had a reactive ability that hit decently hard. Speaking of passive, we do nearly 60% of our damage simply by right clicking. It's completely unenjoyable and lackluster.
We bring no unique buffs, tricks is mainly used to bolster our already pathetic damage, shamans make better interrupters, and abilities like Expose are completely useless.
Excuse me for saying this, but if all I can do is deal damage, then I want to be at the top with the pure dps classes, even though this is an age old argument. But hell, rogues aren't even competitive right now. http://goo.gl/hniYw Let alone topping meters, we are behind every single class except paladins. Rogues suffer the most from mobility issues of any class, are heavily penalized for swapping targets, or making a mistake in general, have pitiful burst, and no multi-dot capabilities.
And after farming content for months, do I get to collect a second set of gear and @*@# around? No, if I'm lucky I get to switch from Mutilate to Combat, when they feel like making combat viable, where the only difference is the ability to cleave. In PvE, the distinction between specs is completely blurred, with nearly identical playstyles for combat and mutilate, and sub gets to toss in Shadowdance and Recup. We have had to watch videos of warlocks, hunters, death knights, mages, paladins, warrior tanks, shadow priests, and druids solo all these encounters and challenge themselves because of either ridiculous mitigation, regen, or kiting abilities, and what do we get? It took that rogue on MMO (excuse me for forgetting his name) TWO HOURS to kill Patchwerk and he had to use a @*@#ing rat as a means of shadowstepping to force Patchwerk to path and give him time to reset his CDs.
Also, the blue post that rogues are overpowered? Rogues are one of the quickest classes to get slammed with nerfs in PvE. Developers have even admitted that HfB was a beautiful design because it allowed them to simply "tuning the damage buff % accordingly". Which, btw, was another bull@#%* nerf, because people were looking at inflated rogue damage due to tricks trading. I can't recall a time ever, aside from dual glaives, where rogues "topped meters" for more than a month before getting @#%* on.
Rogues in PvP are very close to mages in terms of skill cap. It's a joke to play MOST comps as a rogue to 2200, since at that gear/skill level, a full CC rotation and two smokebombs + a dance will kill nearly anything. The amount of finesse required to actually play at a high rating dwarves that of nearly any other class.
Bottom line, you should have realized there was a problem when rogues were unpopular from the beginning, all the underlying problems are still there, most people who still play just play purely out of habit, and we are probably the least newly rolled class. Can you please do something?
Edited by Vapour on 6/22/2011 4:20 AM PDT
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