Why are rogues the least played class?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
Rogues *should* be the highest DPS class. I'd say that if they are not then Blizzard have failed at balancing.

General MMO principles: melee should do slightly higher DPS than ranged to compensate for the natural advantages of ranged, and pure DPS classes should do slightly more than hybrids to compensate for the fact that they don't have the offspec options.

In BC rogues were top DPS (and @%!%e at AOE), Blizzard lost sight of this somewhere though, now rogues have decent AOE but are middle of the road on single target.

edit: as things stand there's pretty much no reason to play a rogue for raiding; other classes have better DPS and better utility (excluding cheese spots like Blade Flurry on Halfus, or original H V&T). Rogues don't even bring anything worth mentioning to the list of raid buffs/debuffs (expose armor is a massive dps loss and usually already covered, and tricks is a frill that it doesn't hurt to not have). Fan of crip is about the only thing, but that is still extremely situational. IMO if rogues gave the 3% raid buff that's currently only given by Arcane Mage, BM Hunter, and Ret Paladin, that would at least be something. (but I still would like to see at least a 10% buff to single target damage, based on the stateofdps.com numbers)
Edited by Lusignan on 6/22/2011 5:38 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Rogue
I don't know, it seems like a common response to this thread is "I only play my Rogue because I don't want to lose my achievements/titles/mounts".

I've been playing my Rogue for half a decade now I really don't remember a time where this many people had rerolled their Rogue main or felt chained to playing it like I and so many people. I don't really see how Blizzard can say there is no correlation here, since this also happens to be arguable the worst position Rogues have ever been in PVE. As I said multiple times, we have several bad, borderline crippling mechanics, overly-long ramp-up time, and a very unrewarding damage output. It's depressing how badly the Devs are underestimating how major these issues are. Even our top theorycrafter is saying that something needs to be done.

Combat and Assassination both have room to receive significant buffs without breaking them in PVP. Making Deadly Poison able to proc the MH poison regardless of stacks won't make Assassination OP in PVP, making Bandit's Guile a flat 20% damage bonus won't make Combat OP in PVP, making Redirect a 30 second CD baseline won't make Sub OP in PVP.
Edited by Scamp on 6/22/2011 5:46 AM PDT
I dont want to let go of my rogue, because there are things about the class that I love.... such as kick... I love everything about kick, the name, the icon, the animation, the idea that a swift kick to the face can stop a cast in its track and even shut someone up for a few seconds. I love distract, and smoke bomb even though I literally never use them... etc.

On the other hand, it pains me to know that my class is the only pure melee DPS, a wretched combination of specializations which my class fails at in both. We are the last in DPS, and despite specializing in melee combat we are the worst at that too. THE IRONY IT BURNS
Edited by Aycer on 6/22/2011 6:37 AM PDT
100 Night Elf Rogue
06/21/2011 09:28 PMPosted by Ithtwil
You know, it's hard to read all this and think anything other "maybe it's because the mentality of the kind of person who plays a rogue is such that EVERYTHING is broken and they're ALWAYS miserable, so they just quit."

it's always a bad idea to make assumptions about an entire population. It's impossible for every rogue to be a whiny crybaby, its much more likely that there are some serious issues with the class that make in unenjoyable.

Rogues can wreck the %!#! out of almost anything in 1v1

Defeat? maybe, but even then a good player of almost any class stands a good chance. Wreck? no. Warriors wreck. Death Knights wreck. When a rogue defeats an enemy, it generally takes longer, requires more precision, and almost always takes a major cooldown.

and the things they can't just destroy has absolutely 0 chance of killing them if the rogue REALLY wants to survive.
In a 1v1 situation with all cooldowns present, yes. but so much as a ranged class with a dot on a rogue without cloak, and there is no surviving if they really want to kill you.
Now some of you are going to say I don't know wtf I'm talking about, but the funny thing is, the ones that protest the most, in their deepest heart, know goddamned well what I'm talking about, and they know I'm right.
You don't know what you're talking about. Writing off all rogue concerns as being player mentality just because you saw some good rogues in action proves how little you know.

Rogues do VERY good dps.

Few people are complaining about our damage so much as how that damage is done(passive vs active) how it looks/feels to deal that damage(small numbers vs big numbers, combo points/target switching, non transferable debuffs, no flashy moves etc) and the fact that dealing good damage in a world where everyone is designed to do good damage leads to "So what else can you do?"

And even when rogues were hard core #1, they STILL weren't happy.

Would you be happy if you could be the best at something, but doing so only required you to hit a button every 7 seconds or so? Rogues don't want 'to be the best' so much as to have a lively and involved rotation that MATTERS.

Rogues are fine. I have one, I enjoy playing on it. I have a warrior, I enjoy that, a pally, a druid, a shammy, pretty much everything this game offers, and I enjoy each their own way.
I have all of those too, and i enjoy my rogue, but that doesn't stop me from realizing the limitations(not just role related) present on this character when compared to my paladin, warrior, or druid. That doesn't stop me from noticing how some concepts are outdated, poorly designed, clearly inferior. It doesnt stop me from seeing how other classes have actually evolved, both in terms of playstyle and beyond traditional weaknesses, something rogues have barely done.

Rogues are absolutely fine. Absolutely fine.They are competitive in pve, they are competitive in pvp. They are no more boring than any other class, they are no more complex than any other class, they are fine.
Completely your opinion. as I mentioned before, being competitive does not make a class interesting. and nobody wants to play a boring class.

Get over yourselves, and play your class, and enjoy it, or pick something else.

That would be why most of us have alts.
90 Night Elf Rogue
06/21/2011 10:14 PMPosted by Givortak
Pure DPS class that has to hit in Melee and is underpowered PvE but overpowered PvP. . . why would anyone want to play it?

I hate all people like you.
90 Night Elf Rogue
06/21/2011 10:08 PMPosted by Scamp
Essentially *every* problem we have in PVE right now is because Blizzard is too afraid it will break something in PVP,

Pretty much this, any time there is a Rogue buff people have PTSD about that time in STV when a level 60 Rogue was ganking their level 30 alt and the wave of tears starts.

Seriously, do some random patch where the only note is

"Distract is not a 25 second CD, down from 30"

And I guarantee there will be at least 30 different whining posts about it (Be it others in PVE because they didn't get anything, or PVPers saying 'great now they can catch me on my mount') Or something to that effect.
85 Draenei Paladin
what makes the class not fun:

vanish 99% never working in opposite faction cities
cloak of shadows not working during some raid mechanics.
shadowstep only being available to sub rogues.
solo content easier on all other class types.
the giant passive damage percentage rogues have in raids.
killing spree being horrible in cata
getting rid of armor pen from the game.
rogue lore very lacking...it would be fun to maybe have an epic quest line for a giant black raven flying mount (stealth flying)
the new 2 min CD you gave CloS to pve rogues
the horribly low damage of rupture.
the amount of stealth detection mobs/trigger points (see ZA/ZG).
the lack of daggers in raids

how to make the class more fun:

give rogues the ability to convert swords/axes into daggers (this would be welcome by all classes)
shadowstep baseline or make sprint give immunity to slows/traps/roots etc.
fix vanish in opposite faction cities
give evasion the same dodge percentage with ranged damage
give us burst back and fix the passive damage % WHICH YOU SAID YOU WOULD FIX.

"Overall, we think rogues do too much passive damage -- autoattacks + poison. We want to shift more of that towards their specials, which will let both the finishers and the generators hit harder while keeping sustained damage about the same."

drop the large amount of stealth detection mobs
raise the rupture damage by a large percentage
give killing spree the same ratio of damage it had in wrath (add a minor glyph to have killing spree be single target)
give rogues a higher baseline dodge percentage
85 Night Elf Rogue
Lets not turn this into X class vs. Y class.

Low rogue population is entirely due to quality of life issues. I think Blizzard has made the correct step in acknowledging that fact with the recent stealth speed fix. We can hope that further adjustments in this line of thinking are made. Then we can make judgments.

My personal opinion is that aside from the stealth speed fix there should be a major push to have rogues build combo points on the rogue rather than the target. The extreme limitation that is put on a player to be tied to a target does not help promote the class and there is almost 0 downside of this being done. It used to be that the concern is in PvP where a 5 point Kidney Shot could be used as a form of cc in Arena would be incredibly OP. But Redirect dispelled that myth.

Next thing is Shadowstep. It is obvious that playing assassination and combat in all aspects of the game is simply painful if it involves any sort of movement/target switching. An un-buffed baseline shadowstep has very little to no impact on rogue representation in PvP. Subtlety would still be the preferred spec due to the control and surviveability it offers. This mainly works as a quality of life improvement in PvE. Maybe a slight improvement in PvP for assassination but not enough to cause concern at high end brackets.

Then if the trend continues the hope is that Blizzard will look into HOW we deal damage. This is the hardest to balance and could pose the most problems.

That being said. At this moment, the only reason why I play a rogue is because of the achievements/time I have invested in it (January 2006 YAAAAH)
5 Undead Rogue
06/21/2011 09:28 PMPosted by Ithtwil
Rogues do VERY good dps.

rogues are pretty close to the bottom of the dps charts right now next to shamans with one spec far below everyone else and it will continue to be that way half way through every patch until they fix our scaling issues.
Edited by Mistresraven on 6/22/2011 11:45 AM PDT
5 Undead Rogue

But...prot isnt ment to kill people..

And actually I do have an 85 pally and have played pre-cata prot before (Ret/Holy now)

Neither is combat

0/10 very bad attempt
90 Undead Priest
06/21/2011 12:25 PMPosted by Peegs
Think about why a warrior is fun to level, pvp, instance with (besides being a hybrid). You get to charge things
This is the #1 reason why I had FUN leveling my warrior alt.

Charge is one of the most FUN abilities in the game, period.

Roaming around in stealth is fun for a while, and it sure helps if you want to get to the miniboss quickly, but then it just gets old and slows you down while grinding (and you missed out on all the xp and loot from stealthing past the trash).

If a key reason for the lack of rogues is boring and painful leveling (and I agree Rogue is the most BORING to level), and because it is such a FUN skill, Shadowstep should go baseline around level 30 (it's powerful, but you want people to get to the fun sooner rather than later).

Sub could then get shadowdance or hemo as a replacement tree perk and then beef up the sub tree as appropriate. Preferably with a new skill.

Aside from boring level, Rogue damage itself is boring too. The key issue for me is that boring CP generators lead to boring, weak, predictable finishers. (Did I mention this was boring?)
90 Undead Rogue

Neither is combat

0/10 very bad attempt

Combat's an awful PvP spec for many reasons. Always has been. Stop trying to hammer the square peg.
85 Undead Rogue
If they really want to know how to fix Rogue PVE, they should just look at Aldriana's blog post. Anything and everything we could ever say has been covered in that shining little beacon of rogue hope.

Seriously, take 15 minutes away from redesigning Paladins again to read the blog entry Blizz..
85 Undead Rogue

0/10 very bad attempt

Combat's an awful PvP spec for many reasons. Always has been. Stop trying to hammer the square peg.

Combat was both viable in burning crusade (most of it infact) and in wrath of the lich king. You clearly have not played this game very long.
100 Draenei Paladin
Rogues just appeal to a small group of people with the playstyle. I don't think they are very flashy, by nature.

The conspiracies on here are pretty lame.
100 Orc Shaman
I like my rogue still. But I don't love him like I used to.

I don't like the recuperate finisher. I don't feel like healing fits him.

I don't like being saddled with so many lengthy cooldowns. Still. I had high hopes this would be alleviated when they directly said they were going to do something about it for this expansion.

Finishers feel weaker than ever.

I loved the rogue because I liked the concept of it. A stealthy, low armor, high risk, do it or lose it kind of class. But you can only love the concept for so long before the execution, gameplay, and mechanics of it wear away at you.

He's still got easily the most achievements of any character on my account. But I wish I could just transfer those over to all my characters or at least this guy.

90 Undead Rogue
06/22/2011 02:33 PMPosted by Renthor
Combat was both viable in burning crusade (most of it infact) and in wrath of the lich king. You clearly have not played this game very long.

HARP was good for a time in BC solely because of Preparation doubling up Adrenaline Rush with Hemorrhage spam, and was promptly nerfed and nullified, leaving Combat useless.

Combat was good for a time in Wrath solely because of Throwing Specialization completely shutting down any caster class by spamming Fan of Knives, which was promptly nerfed and nullified, leaving Combat useless.

Just because those talents propped up the whole spec (and they did) doesn't mean that the spec was designed well.
Edited by Kanoi on 6/22/2011 2:50 PM PDT
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