Why are rogues the least played class?

85 Worgen Rogue
9445
06/17/2011 08:02 PMPosted by Shynn
It's not going to take a lot of tweaking to make rogues more viable.


no its not thats, the problem, even a simple change like stop adding more energy regen to every damm thing making us gcd and energy caped would go a long way, though to be honest we need a very serious and complete revamp, u know much like most classes got in cata

06/17/2011 08:02 PMPosted by Shynn
Like I said.. you can't compare the total number of hybrids to the number of role spots available


i didn't in my post i was talking strictly bout dps, right now in terms of dps any of those classes (except ferals) can do the job (dps) better, and with less problems (being behind boss, target swap tanks the dps, crappy aoe)

06/17/2011 08:02 PMPosted by Shynn
We have a ret, 2 prots, and 2 holy. We bring 2 rogues. 2 > 1.


but if you had 2 more ret palys and you were progressing on a fight like heroic maloriak and were pushing to try and get a kill before next patch so you wanted to field your best chance of getting the fight down, the 3 rets would be better then the 2 rogues, thats my problem
Edited by Thebackstab on 6/17/2011 10:21 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
10795
I want to know where this "Rogues are hard to level" nonsense comes from. I've had every class in this game to cap, with the exception of Mage and DK.

I've had 2 level 80 Rogues in Wotlk , I leveled both as Combat swords and found it easier than most other specs I've played. This was before Recup. No class or spec is a pain to level aside from maybe the healing specs, let alone a class with stealth to avoid crap and just get to quest objectives, and CD's to easily solo elite mobs that some other specs would need help killing. But anyhow, on topic.

I think the reason is what has been stated already, Rogues have changed the least of all classes in the lifespan of this game. I also think a collection of little annoyances and poor design like no AoE till Fan of Knives also contribute. Many of Rogues abilities are NOT interesting at all (Vendetta, Redirect etc) and I think many people are sick of being balanced around so many damned cooldowns.

rogue have to be careful when leveling. outside of there long cooldowns they are very squishy
plate classes can pull large numbers of groups and tank them till they die, mages can pull large groups and freeze them in place, and aoe them down, hunters and locks have pets that can tank for them most of the time.
then there's group quests, rogues are the only class that actually need the extra people to do the group quests priests might have a hard time but it's doable if they can heal through the damage.
100 Human Rogue
12150
06/17/2011 07:14 PMPosted by Kevout
rogues are not the least played class. plenty of classes can only do damage. rogues are mainly utilized for pvp, the same way they always have been. they are also the top melee dps in raids
I'm guessing you don't raid with warriors or death knights
85 Night Elf Rogue
4985
http://stateofdps.com/index.php?data=patch_dps&raid=25H&samples=200&spec=dps

Says it all. Outside of Combat on Halfus we're middle-low on nearly every fight in both specs. Who would look at those charts and decide to play a rogue?

Then factor in that the class is unchanged and stale and 2/3 of our Cata talents are useless in PvE and the other highly situational, and that melee dps are in a poor spot for raid mechanics with no change in sight (Al'akir and Ragnaros are a slap in the face). Our armor designs have also ranged from utter crap to decent since T2.

The only thing going for us is decreased raid damage, which nobody really notices since it just means we're at 100% while the aoe heals are still ticking for everyone else. Rogues are in a sad state and Blizz's answer is to nerf us in PvP and "balance" it with a barely noticeable straight dmg buff that simply keeps us in 4.2 where we are now. Sigh...
85 Worgen Rogue
9445
http://stateofdps.com/index.php?data=patch_dps&raid=25H&samples=200&spec=dps


you know what i love most about this? lets look at classes that outdps a rogue

lock
priest
mage
druid
hunter
warrior
dk

lets look at classes that don't

pally (they about even)
shaman

this is overall, u add in target swaping (like omnitron heroic) and every single class in the game outdpses a rogue, literally, go look at the data for ODS and tell me which class pulls less dps

and we've always had scaling issues, by t12 heroic were gonna be in the same spot if not even worse... now tell me why do you think ppl don't like rogues right now?
100 Night Elf Rogue
12560
TLDR: Any number of reasons:
The non-dps role in pvp
The limited dps role in pve
The similarities between the specs
The static abilities which are archaic and simply designed. not 'poorly' designed(with exceptions like bandits guile) but much less fun, enjoyable, or thoughtful as they could be.
Fragility outside of cooldowns(yes, recup is nice, but a rogue without cooldowns is still a dead rogue in any competitive pvp)
The severe penalties that come with poor decision making

The non-DPS role in pvp

Rogues are the only class with a dps spec played in pvp that is not taken to dps, but instead to cause enough chaos among the enemy team to allow the real heavy hitters to take down a kill. If you ever play sub rogue/healer, it's painful. Auto loss against any other heal/dps team unless they are bad. Having a dps spec yet not bringing the satisfying facesmashing numbers that dks. rets, and warriors get is just disheartening.

The limited dps role in pve

One of four classes regulated to strictly dps. Even if the playstyles were fun, the same role every time grows boring eventually. Also, as melee dps, any mechanic that penalizes melee roles is more severe on rogues than any of the other pures, and unlike their melee brethren, rogues can't respec into another role to escape this.

The similarities between the specs

All specs play pretty much the same- combo point generator, finisher, repeat. All rogues dual wield. In fact, rogues are the only class that MUST, regardless of spec, always wield a specific setup(a pair of one handed weapons.) every other class (sometimes depending on spec) has the option of a 2handed weapon, or a weapon and shield, or even a weapon/frill combo. Unlike mages or hunters, who share similar similarities among their specs, rogue attacks have simple, nonflashy animations. they dont even get the orange/white/blue of mages.
Static abilities/ archaic and simple mechanics.

As someone else mentioned, they really dropped the ball on rogue mechanics. 'combos' are only the same attack 3-5 times, and you can't even mix and match them, each spec has its defining ability. Combos are therefore always the same, the only variable being the finisher(1-3 finishers) and how many times you pressed mutisterrhagestab. combo points are stuck on the target, damage is mostly passive, combos are non-interactive with minimal changes depending on the situation. It's not even 1234, its 11112.
Fragility outside of cooldowns(and general unreliability of them) This mostly applies to leveling. Back in the day, it was one mob at a time, and you'd better have first aid. I actually picked alchemy back then on my first rogue so I could have access to heals. If two mobs came, you'd better have evasion or vanish up, or else. Now, with recup its a little better, but you're still blowing cooldowns if you want less downtime and more than oen target at once. And until recently, rogue cooldowns had built in failure rates... wait 3 minutes to have your defense fail anyway...

The severe penalties that come with poor decision making

Small mistakes(especially in pvp) tend to come with large costs, moreso than other specs. Especially in regards to timing, cooldown usage, resource pooling, and which order you make use of your abilities. To an extent, mages and hunters suffer from similar problems(id say hunters have it the worst, then rogues, then mages). Put simply, it is harder to recover from a mistake as a rogue than a majority of other classes.

All other melee can get around the fact that ranged is clearly superior currently by tanking or healing. But if your going to play a pure dps class your only going to play a rogue if you really really enjoy it because by rolling another class you can either do superior dps or have a viable offspec to raid with.

Having 'an offspec to raid with' assumes that 1) the player is interested in that other role, 2) that they are any good at it, and 3) that their raid has space for another tank or healer. None of these are given, though it's quite possible that re-rolls away from rogues to other melee are by people who meet these requirements.

However, there are other possible reasons, such as: The playstyle and image of the rogue is simply not terribly popular with WoW players (especially PvE players). Or: the mechanics simply do not appeal to most people.

edit: I'll elaborate. The playstyle is boring. Always has been. People put up with it because rogues were pretty strong in BC. Now that they're not, a lot of people who played rogues back then have shelved them, because the playstyle and they're no longer strong. And because the playstyle is boring, no one bothers leveling a new rogue once they reach level ranges where they can no longer lolambush people anymore.

Oddly, I levelled a rogue recently. OTOH, I was lolambushing mobs all the way to 85. It's a pity sub is just so stupidly tricky in group PvE (5-mans, raids), because the other two specs are even less engaging to play than arcane, for me (at least arcane has a mana-management mini-game to play).

There was a time when endgame gear wasn't so easily obtainable or plentiful. A time when 'hybrid' only meant that the class had the potential for multiple roles not that it could preform multiple roles throughout a raid, batch of content, or season.

I can say with little doubt that a majority of people who played Hpally in s8 and stuck with the class in s9 have both full Holy and Ret sets and have so for a while. Same with druids and same with some shamans. Most core raiders that play hybrids work for and have off-spec gear to adapt and adjust raid composition for encounters and player/class availability.

Actually, we've been doing this for a long time. In BC I had a tanking set (was main-spec prot), a ret set (because prot was god-awful outside instances aside from AoE grinding), and a healing set (because our 25-man raid group had plenty of tanks and ret DPS alliance-side was a poor joke). LK just made this less expensive (via gold inflation so that 50g pre respec ceased to be any sort of issue), and then less of a nuisance (having to hearth, respec, and then be lock-summoned back was simply annoying for the whole raid).
100 Undead Rogue
7130
Well I don't think they're too hard to play in pvp. Every time i get killed randomly it's a rouge. In fact i find them a bit overpowered.


Ambush is imba early on, dont worry it gets worse.

I remember distinctly feeling that it was easier than my Hunter which I leveld as BM. Which prompts alot of people to say I am either an amazing Rogue or a terrible Hunter, but really, how can one be bad at BM. =/



before the Monty Haul talent trees and heirloomage, leveling from a sub pov, if you accidently pulled an extra mob, simply put, it was time to skate or die. There was never enough energy to use your moves in a meaningful way..i.e every backstab cost a gouge, and awarded you 2 combo points for having blown 135% of your energy bar on a backstab, now leaving you with the rough choice of " do I evis with 2 cp's or wait till I get me 5 and risk dieing....

3 mobs at once *strictly* called for vanish, no if ands or butts.
90 Human Rogue
9185
06/16/2011 01:38 AMPosted by Kouzidan
Why use a manual when this year's automatics are more efficient, faster, and easier to drive?


Because an automatic transmission will ever be able to produce the thrill that driving manually shifted transmission can.
85 Night Elf Rogue
4985
I wish the patch notes would reflect that the blues even bother to read legitimate threads like these instead of random spam threads on the General forum.
85 Worgen Warlock
3355
Not the least played anymore from what I've seen.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=-1&factionid=-1&minlevel=85&maxlevel=85&servertypeid=-1
58 Undead Rogue
830
TLDR: Any number of reasons:
The non-dps role in pvp
The limited dps role in pve
The similarities between the specs
The static abilities which are archaic and simply designed. not 'poorly' designed(with exceptions like bandits guile) but much less fun, enjoyable, or thoughtful as they could be.
Fragility outside of cooldowns(yes, recup is nice, but a rogue without cooldowns is still a dead rogue in any competitive pvp)
The severe penalties that come with poor decision making


Everything besides that second last one applys to locks, too. Shows a pattern huh?
90 Orc Rogue
17960
Because the only difference between our current rotation and our Naxxramas rotation, was back in Naxxramas, my index finger had a nervous twitch thanks to old HfB.
100 Night Elf Rogue
12560
TLDR: Any number of reasons:
The non-dps role in pvp
The limited dps role in pve
The similarities between the specs
The static abilities which are archaic and simply designed. not 'poorly' designed(with exceptions like bandits guile) but much less fun, enjoyable, or thoughtful as they could be.
Fragility outside of cooldowns(yes, recup is nice, but a rogue without cooldowns is still a dead rogue in any competitive pvp)
The severe penalties that come with poor decision making


Everything besides that second last one applys to locks, too. Shows a pattern huh?

yeah, and that second to last one is only because Locks dont have cooldowns....
85 Undead Warlock
7450
It probably has a lot to do with why warlocks are so rare as well. The leveling experience is just such a chore that you'll only go through it if you have a very very good reason and something very specific you want to do at 85.
85 Worgen Druid
4925
06/19/2011 03:22 PMPosted by Maelvos
It probably has a lot to do with why warlocks are so rare as well. The leveling experience is just such a chore that you'll only go through it if you have a very very good reason and something very specific you want to do at 85.

And even then, it'll be a chore.

I wanted to roll a Demo Warlock at 85 because Hand of Gul'dan is awesome. Didn't even make it to level 30 before I ragequit.
90 Gnome Warrior
14990
we're all switching to warriors.
85 Tauren Shaman
7995
Because Resto doesnt suck.
If it did, you wouldnt be the least played class.
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