Why Block Capping is Bad

90 Orc Death Knight
10920
Glancing through an Atramedes log from two weeks back, a DK app tank was taking 70k hits for the most part. So it's definately higher than Blizzard says but not quite as high as is portrayed.

I do see a couple hits in the upper 80k's but they may be outliers and I dont know why they're happening. It's possible Scarlet Fever dropped off, which makes things even more fun!


From one of your Atramedes kills and with a warrior tanking.

[21:08:06.687] Atramedes Modulation Frayed 48998 (R: 12249)
[21:08:08.361] Atramedes hits Frayed 104261
[21:08:10.259] Atramedes hits Frayed 10807 (O: 65369)
85 Orc Death Knight
6450
06/23/2011 01:35 PMPosted by Xayton


You are really going to argue that 2 tanks always taking 70% damage, while death knights often take 100% isn't similar?

100/70 = 143%. Crushing blows doing 50% more damage was an issue, but unblocked hits doing 43% more damage is completely fine?


Still not the same thing as getting hit for 150%. That is what I am saying. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am not arguing balance.


So if they reduced boss damage by 30%, gave bosses a 90% to get a Crushing Blow, and made Block simply make the hit a normal attack, it would fit what you are saying?

150% of 100 is the same thing as 100% of 150. Focusing on a single number is idiotic.
85 Human Paladin
6435



Still not the same thing as getting hit for 150%. That is what I am saying. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am not arguing balance.


So if they reduced boss damage by 30%, gave bosses a 90% to get a Crushing Blow, and made Block simply make the hit a normal attack, it would fit what you are saying?

150% of 100 is the same thing as 100% of 150. Focusing on a single number is idiotic.


I will say it again because you clearly didn't read it.

Even if I block you didn't take a crushing blow. You were not hit for 150% damage. You make have taken x% more damage then I did, but it wasn't a literal 150% hit. Crushing Blows implies the latter.
Edited by Xayton on 6/23/2011 3:18 PM PDT
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
[21:08:06.687] Atramedes Modulation Frayed 48998 (R: 12249)
[21:08:08.361] Atramedes hits Frayed 104261
[21:08:10.259] Atramedes hits Frayed 10807 (O: 65369)



Frayed isn't a tank ;)
85 Night Elf Warrior
0


So if they reduced boss damage by 30%, gave bosses a 90% to get a Crushing Blow, and made Block simply make the hit a normal attack, it would fit what you are saying?

150% of 100 is the same thing as 100% of 150. Focusing on a single number is idiotic.


I will say it again because you clearly didn't read it.

Even if I block you didn't take a crushing blow. You were not hit for 150% damage. You make have taken x% more damage then I did, but it wasn't a literal 150% hit. Crushing Blows implies the latter.


A rose by any other name is still a rose Xayton. You took one hit, the DK took 150% more damage. Actually, more than once you factor in Armor differences.

The point is, it's the "new" Crushing Blow. Quit arguing semantics. You know what people are saying, you're not a moron.
85 Human Paladin
6435
06/23/2011 03:21 PMPosted by Feandel
The point is, it's the "new" Crushing Blow. Quit arguing semantics. You know what people are saying, you're not a moron.


I understand what you are saying, but you need to stop calling it crushing blows, because it's not.

It's like calling block avoidance. Sure we know what you are talking about, but that doesn't make it the correct term.
Edited by Xayton on 6/23/2011 3:26 PM PDT
100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465
Feandel, I don't really think they'll go that path, but if they do, balancing for that doesn't honestly sound that onerous.

Dekkar, I'm with you on unblocked hits being the new crushing blow (you were right, GC, just an expansion early), but Mastery isn't that much of a super-stat for paladins. DR just doesn't bite as hard or as fast as you think it does. In 372 gear, if you stack the crap out of either Parry or Dodge, ignoring the other, you can get it down to maybe 0.80 of Mastery, but Mastery is going down in value with 4.2 so it's going to get even tougher.

Remember that a dodged blow does a lot less damage than a blocked one. Also, if you're block capped and reforging to parry, each avoidance gain results in a little more Mastery you can reforge to Avoidance. It's not a ton, but it's noticeable and adds up.
90 Tauren Warrior
12040
This is just one more symptom of a larger problem.

Move towards unblockable damage? Druids and DKs are the reigning champions. Warriors and Paladins get benched. Their masteries are off the combat table and reduce any form of physical damage taken, including damage that can't be avoided or blocked.

Move towards magical damage? DKs reign supreme untouched by miles. Druids wheeze in at a distant 2nd with warriors and paladins a bit behind them (assuming they finish at all).

There is no easy way out of this dead-end.

Yes, those are concerns if one goes too far in the opposite direction. The challenge, then, is to distribute blockable and unblockable damage in such a way that no class is put at a significant advantage or disadvantage relative to the others. No one said it would be easy to balance classes with different mechanics, but that doesn't make it impossible.
1 Dwarf Priest
0
06/23/2011 03:22 PMPosted by Xayton
The point is, it's the "new" Crushing Blow. Quit arguing semantics. You know what people are saying, you're not a moron.


I understand what you are saying, but you need to stop calling it crushing blows, because it's not.

It's like calling block avoidance. Sure we know what you are talking about, but that doesn't make it the correct term.


When everyone else in the room disagrees with you, it's probably a good time to take a step back and re-evaluate whats "correct".
85 Human Paladin
6435



I understand what you are saying, but you need to stop calling it crushing blows, because it's not.

It's like calling block avoidance. Sure we know what you are talking about, but that doesn't make it the correct term.


When everyone else in the room disagrees with you, it's probably a good time to take a step back and re-evaluate whats "correct".


You are not being hit for 150% damage, the damage difference 150%. The former is what crushing blows literally means. The latter is what your "new" crushing blow is. Not the same thing. I'm not the one who is redefining a term, you are.
Edited by Xayton on 6/23/2011 3:40 PM PDT
85 Night Elf Druid
5025
Or full CTC coverage could be removed and then encounters wouldn't have to be balanced around it, which wouldn't lead to DKs essentially never tanking Heroic content again after some level (probably T13). I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing DKs get shelved in HT12.

But yes, there are basically two options:

1) Complete overhaul of DK tanking.
2) Nerf full CTC coverage.


I thought I saw this in the pass, but would a simpler solution be to give DKs a block mechanic that tends to essentially do the same thing as shield tanks, but call it something else, like, Deflection?

I understand that this will require some overhaul of their self healing, but will it be that drastic, and will it homogenize the tanks even further? It just seems like attempting to use the current models is driving us deeper and deeper into the abyss. Occam's razor? sort of, but the simplest solution is often the best?


Please explain how this solution would in any way be simple. Adding ANOTHER stat for ONE class would mean that they would have to implement gear with a stat on it that no other plate wearer could use, thus making Death Knights have to run dungeons or raids 824791475924 more times just to get the specific loot for their tanking spec and class. Not only that, but they'd need to balance it out to do basically what others are suggesting they do with Death Knight mastery; Give a flat amount of damage reduction. Also, also... That would mean reforging out the wa-zoo for most Death Knight tanks.

The very simplest solution would be to straight up increase Death Knight tank armor through a talent. Maybe take out Dancing Rune Weapon (since it's pretty useless, anyway) and replace it with a talent that allows the Death Knight to gain more armor from gear or simply adding it to an existing talent.
85 Undead Death Knight
5765


I thought I saw this in the pass, but would a simpler solution be to give DKs a block mechanic that tends to essentially do the same thing as shield tanks, but call it something else, like, Deflection?

I understand that this will require some overhaul of their self healing, but will it be that drastic, and will it homogenize the tanks even further? It just seems like attempting to use the current models is driving us deeper and deeper into the abyss. Occam's razor? sort of, but the simplest solution is often the best?


Please explain how this solution would in any way be simple. Adding ANOTHER stat for ONE class would mean that they would have to implement gear with a stat on it that no other plate wearer could use, thus making Death Knights have to run dungeons or raids 824791475924 more times just to get the specific loot for their tanking spec and class. Not only that, but they'd need to balance it out to do basically what others are suggesting they do with Death Knight mastery; Give a flat amount of damage reduction. Also, also... That would mean reforging out the wa-zoo for most Death Knight tanks.

The very simplest solution would be to straight up increase Death Knight tank armor through a talent. Maybe take out Dancing Rune Weapon (since it's pretty useless, anyway) and replace it with a talent that allows the Death Knight to gain more armor from gear or simply adding it to an existing talent.


I think the point is to make Death Knight mastery give CTC, like call it something like 'Bone Shield' and just say "When you're in combat you're circled by bones, and have an X% chance to block x% damage off of any melee hit" or some such. Preferably with better language.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670


When everyone else in the room disagrees with you, it's probably a good time to take a step back and re-evaluate whats "correct".


You are not being hit for 150% damage, the damage difference 150%. The former is what crushing blows literally means. The latter is what your "new" crushing blow is. Not the same thing. I'm not the one who is redefining a term, you are.

It's semantics. Semantics that nobody really cares about and has no bearing on the issue at hand.

You could call it a "Xayton Punch" and nobody would care as long as they knew what you were talking about.
85 Undead Death Knight
5765


You are not being hit for 150% damage, the damage difference 150%. The former is what crushing blows literally means. The latter is what your "new" crushing blow is. Not the same thing. I'm not the one who is redefining a term, you are.

It's semantics. Semantics that nobody really cares about and has no bearing on the issue at hand.

You could call it a "Xayton Punch" and nobody would care as long as they knew what you were talking about.


'Xayton Punch' actually has a really nice ring to it. All in favor?
85 Human Paladin
6435


It's semantics. Semantics that nobody really cares about and has no bearing on the issue at hand.

You could call it a "Xayton Punch" and nobody would care as long as they knew what you were talking about.


'Xayton Punch' actually has a really nice ring to it. All in favor?


Hahahahahah, I highly approve of this idea!!!!!
Edited by Xayton on 6/23/2011 3:45 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
5925


Please explain how this solution would in any way be simple. Adding ANOTHER stat for ONE class would mean that they would have to implement gear with a stat on it that no other plate wearer could use, thus making Death Knights have to run dungeons or raids 824791475924 more times just to get the specific loot for their tanking spec and class. Not only that, but they'd need to balance it out to do basically what others are suggesting they do with Death Knight mastery; Give a flat amount of damage reduction. Also, also... That would mean reforging out the wa-zoo for most Death Knight tanks.

The very simplest solution would be to straight up increase Death Knight tank armor through a talent. Maybe take out Dancing Rune Weapon (since it's pretty useless, anyway) and replace it with a talent that allows the Death Knight to gain more armor from gear or simply adding it to an existing talent.


I think the point is to make Death Knight mastery give CTC, like call it something like 'Bone Shield' and just say "When you're in combat you're circled by bones, and have an X% chance to block x% damage off of any melee hit" or some such. Preferably with better language.


Yes.

....I think Dry had too much coffee. Didn't mean to get ya all riled Dry, was just a thought from a past thread I had read. ;p
85 Orc Death Knight
6450


When everyone else in the room disagrees with you, it's probably a good time to take a step back and re-evaluate whats "correct".


You are not being hit for 150% damage, the damage difference 150%. The former is what crushing blows literally means. The latter is what your "new" crushing blow is. Not the same thing. I'm not the one who is redefining a term, you are.


I don't care whether a boss has 10k base damage and does an attack for 1000% or has 200k base damage and does an attack for 50%. They are the same damage result. All that matters is the final number, not what percents it goes through.
90 Draenei Death Knight
10970
I think I'm going to try something different. I'm going to switch over to more of a full EH setup and see how much of a difference it makes.

Regemming everything for stamina and swapping to Rune of stoneskin Gargoyle netted me ~15k health and ~1200 armor at the expense of blood shield dropping from 142% to 127% and around 4.5% parry.

I'm unglyphing Vampiric Blood as well, because damage taken when I am getting healed doesn't concern me as much as TTL when I'm not getting heals.

I hear people say that the goal of a tank is to take as little damage as possible. I disagree. The absolute goal of a tank is to live through the fight. Dying to spike damage is just as much of a failure of that goal as dying due to healers OOMing.

Honestly I don't think my healers' mana expenditure will actually increase that much.

1. Any time I get a minimum heal due to an avoidance streak, absorbs, or interruptions in damage, my ds heal + shield is roughly the same in either setup.

2. If spike damage takes me to 40% health instead of 30% health, then it is somewhat less likely to send healers into panic mode and use low efficiency heals.
Edited by Merissa on 6/23/2011 3:52 PM PDT
85 Undead Death Knight
5765


You are not being hit for 150% damage, the damage difference 150%. The former is what crushing blows literally means. The latter is what your "new" crushing blow is. Not the same thing. I'm not the one who is redefining a term, you are.


I don't care whether a boss has 10k base damage and does an attack for 1000% or has 200k base damage and does an attack for 50%. They are the same damage result. All that matters is the final number, not what percents it goes through.


Of course it does. Sure, it wouldn't if he did it for every single attack, but if you're taking 10k base damage and than hit by a 1000% attack then the 10k base attack is either going to be insignificant to you or the 1000% is going to be a one-shot.

Xaaaaaaaytooooooooon... PAAAAAUNCH!
85 Human Paladin
6435
I don't care whether a boss has 10k base damage and does an attack for 1000% or has 200k base damage and does an attack for 50%. They are the same damage result. All that matters is the final number, not what percents it goes through.


You don't call a Pear an Apple just because they look similar.

06/23/2011 03:51 PMPosted by Corpseicle
Xaaaaaaaytooooooooon... PAAAAAUNCH!


I like where this is going.
Edited by Xayton on 6/23/2011 3:53 PM PDT
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