Why Block Capping is Bad

14 Dwarf Hunter
30
06/23/2011 12:43 PMPosted by Feandel
Average of 25% less armor than shield tanks have.


i still remember when i asked my sister what her Bear had for armor and she can back with a shy "only 46k".

she was iL348, i was iL360.

my jaw was on the floor. i couldn't believe that she had MORE THAN 150% OF THE ARMOR I DID.
Xayton Punch: Boss ability, strikes the tank for 150% unmitigatable damage of his normal swing, occurs every .9 seconds after every regular swing.

Kidding aside (or maybe not if he were a light hitting boss we might survive). I think a number of people are looking at the problem from a rather "inside the box" perspective. The problem is not that DKs can't block or that they take more damage. The problem is they take more damage potentially too quickly, requiring healers as well as the tanks to know what's going on. Assuming the following:

1. Blizzard wants DKs to continue to take more damage
2. Blizzard wants DKs to be more active in their mechanics
3. Blizzard wants DKs to use self-healing/mastery shielding mechanics to eliminate the discrepancy
4. DK priorities are jumbled and difficult to use the current implementation of self-healing meant to do the above.

The solution it seems is not to make DKs get a new stat or in some other way mimic the other tanks directly by increasing mitigation. Instead they need a self-healing/mastery ability that has more on-demand capability than Death Strike currently does. Currently Death Strike has the following status:

1. Best used reactively
2. Triggers the mastery shield
3. Requires two runes to active one each of U and F

From what I am reading, and have watched more than a few DK tanks go through, the "rune tetris" situation centers a lot around working in Death Strikes. The problem I see with this is that Death Strike is a baseline necessity to survival. No other tank has to put in so much effort to acheive the same results, not even close. I would think in this situation the solution (that would fit the design scheme) is going to have to be an active button to push that is not going to be as difficult to pull off in the rotation. What that button should be would require a lot of simulation, but I suspect Death Strike will not be it (unless there is an alteration to it's cost).
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
This is going back a lot of pages but I haven't had internet so whatev.

@Charsi: The main reason for changing Sinestra Orb mechanics seemed to be 10-man where having both healers Orbed meant death. It was rough for 25-man too, but on 10-man it was just insane.


Yeah.

Also, Wrack.

06/24/2011 04:43 AMPosted by Urudhûm
From what I am reading, and have watched more than a few DK tanks go through, the "rune tetris" situation centers a lot around working in Death Strikes. The problem I see with this is that Death Strike is a baseline necessity to survival.


It also has a cooldown inherent to rune regen. Imagine if they gave Block an ICD of, well, lets say 2 seconds. Imagine the outcry.

This is why I suggested a page back that Blood Shield be split off from Death Strike. Death Strike can remain active, that is, self-healing when you need it. But Blood Shield itself should be a passive chance for damage reduction when hit. Yes, that turns it into block, sort of.

But the only good part about the "active" nature of Death Strike is that you can choose to use it in response to a spike in health. This however runs contrary to the fact that you actually want to use it as much as possible (with exceptions obviously) for consistent Blood Shield coverage.

Overall, what I believe they should do is:

1. Reduce the potency of Block, across the board, a lot
2. Do something with Blood Shield, maybe
3. Make a balance pass of the physical dps of all bosses, since the delta between blocked and unblocked hit will now be much smaller

Point 3 is to my mind the real issue. The delta between an unblocked hit and a blocked hit is huge. And we have some classes that, by design, are going to be taking unblocked hits because their mechanic simply isn't block.

Block is too potent. Block capping is too potent but that's kind of a symptom of Block itself being such a huge reduction. There's two ways to go about fixing this imo: You can either nerf Mastery so we can't block cap, or you can nerf Block itself so a blocked hit isn't so much less than an unblocked one. I think one or the other thing will have to happen, and possibly quite a bit sooner than 4.3.

It all comes back to what I said earlier: we should have never had such high block values coupled with such high block chance. I shouldn't have 60% chance to block 30% physical damage in Cata tier 1.

If Warriors and Paladins only blocked for low percentages, having an unhittable tank wouldn't be so bad. Being the spikier tank (DK) wouldn't be so bad. Bosses wouldn't have to hit so freaking hard.
Edited by Charsi on 6/24/2011 6:49 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10020
Point 3 is to my mind the real issue. The delta between an unblocked hit and a blocked hit is huge. And we have some classes that, by design, are going to be taking unblocked hits because their mechanic simply isn't block.

Block is too potent. Block capping is therefore too potent. You can either nerf Mastery so we can't block cap, or you can nerf Block so a blocked hit isn't so much less than an unblocked one. I think one or the other thing will have to happen, and possibly quite a bit sooner than 4.3.


Is Block Capping the problem or is the problem with DKs? I really don't know what to think. Warriors, naturally, also have the problem through this tier. It will require full on mastery stacking (meaning everything into mastery basically) in order for them to cap in heroic firelands gear. However, at that point, 3 classes all are similar with the boost to TTL. The amount of mitigation on druids next patch is rather baffling. It really makes me want a Zarko spreadsheet.

Columns are the boss damage / player HP (% of player's HP per swing)

Hits until death
+------------------------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+
| | 20.0%| 23.0%| 26.0%| 29.0%| 32.0%| 35.0%| 38.0%| 41.0%| 44.0%| 47.0%| 50.0%|
+------------------------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+
| DK (100%)| 5.0| 4.35| 3.85| 3.45| 3.12| 2.86| 2.63| 2.44| 2.27| 2.13| 2.0|
+------------------------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+
| Block Tank (93.89%)| 5.33| 4.63| 4.1| 3.67| 3.33| 3.04| 2.8| 2.6| 2.42| 2.27| 2.13|
+------------------------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+
| Druid (71.94%)| 6.95| 6.04| 5.35| 4.79| 4.34| 3.97| 3.66| 3.39| 3.16| 2.96| 2.78|
+------------------------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+
| CTC Block Tank (64.35%)| 7.77| 6.76| 5.98| 5.36| 4.86| 4.44| 4.09| 3.79| 3.53| 3.31| 3.11|
+------------------------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+

90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
06/24/2011 07:12 AMPosted by Dosvidaniya
The amount of mitigation on druids next patch is rather baffling.

They keep saying it isn't because our "block" is terrible, but I think they're mis-representing the truth (Vengeance TT anyone?).

What they're designing and what they're telling us feels like left-hand / right-hand syndrome.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13140
I think another Zarko sheet may be in order, but it's clear it can't just be a Patch-style damage model. Regular unblock able or magic attacks of various magnitudes and frequencies need to be incorporated. Firelans-Patch will make DKs look hopeless and they aren't THAT bad.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10020
06/24/2011 07:56 AMPosted by Wrathblood
I think another Zarko sheet may be in order, but it's clear it can't just be a Patch-style damage model. Regular unblock able or magic attacks of various magnitudes and frequencies need to be incorporated. Firelans-Patch will make DKs look hopeless and they aren't THAT bad.


This is why Zarko regretted the sheet. He used a patch-style model because when it comes to magic damage, you basically have baseline modifiers and that is it. Sure, DKs get complicated a bit. However, those comparisons are all just simplistic where you name modifiers and can list CDs. Neither tells you anything overly useful without fight context. The idea behind the sheet was to see the differing physical mitigation. As for the DK comment, that's an assumption on your part.
85 Undead Death Knight
5765
06/24/2011 07:56 AMPosted by Wrathblood
I think another Zarko sheet may be in order, but it's clear it can't just be a Patch-style damage model. Regular unblock able or magic attacks of various magnitudes and frequencies need to be incorporated. Firelans-Patch will make DKs look hopeless and they aren't THAT bad.


Regular unblockable attacks don't help DK's out much. Sure it goes into our next Blood Shield, and we have the very best tools against predictable magic damage, but if it's random it's just further contributing to the likelihood of burst death. It may look like it serves DK's better, and it will from a purely mathematical point of view, but its the ability to always block the fist that comes behind it that will put a CTC Paladin above a Death Knight.
85 Human Priest
2865
06/23/2011 04:45 PMPosted by Dryarae
I would still suggest changing the mastery. Blood Shield taking the heal and applying that amount (or modified to be lower for balance) and allocating it to that amount of physical damage reduction for ~10 seconds. It would, effectively, be block, but instead of RNG block the Death Knight would be forced to control it. The only RNG would be how much damage is actually "blocked" due to the heal not always being the same amount because of incoming boss damage. Maybe I'm doing exactly what I accused someone else of doing. Something about having six different "complex"es in the same sentence.


Would I be able to get any more feedback on this? I realize the "Xayton Punch" is rather interesting but let's get back to the real point of the thread.

EDIT: Oopsie, poopsie. Forgot I was posting in the Priest forums on this toon. Oh well. Asiel = Dryarae. And, obviously, I'm really bad at reading Masteries. /facepalm. Nevermind.
Edited by Asiel on 6/24/2011 8:40 AM PDT
85 Undead Death Knight
5765
At that point, it's nothing but a button to hit every ten seconds though. It's not really active at all. I'd rather they just made block passive and gave us Death Strike heals before that. Would it stack if you Death Striked twice?
85 Night Elf Druid
5025
Now that I read my post and re-read the Mastery itself, I just proposed a buff to the Mastery. So, in effect, no. It wouldn't stack. That's why I suggested it lasted so long instead of being a one-shot only thing. Since you should be using Death Strike about every 10 seconds, the buff lasts that long. It would need to be replaced or you could run the risk of "blocking" too much damage. Say you Death Strike and it heals for the current maximum of 20% of your total HP and you have about 180k HP. 36k damage of the physical attacks done to you are absorbed for the next 10 seconds. If you Death Strike again before that and it heals, once again, the maximum amount and stacks with the current application of Blood Shield... That's 72k physical damage absorbed for the next 10 seconds after the second Death Strike and so on.

If you're starting a fight out with full Death Runes and can get three off within 30 seconds, between the third Death Strike and when your Blood Shield drops off you'd be fairly effectively mitigating ALL physical damage taken and then some. It's pretty unfair to the other tanks at that point to be able to reduce all physical damage completely for such a long period of time while having your Anti-Magic Shield to then do the same for magic damage for a period of time.

Then if you think about that in a PvP setting... You'd be effectively giving Death Knights a Paladin bubble right off with no cooldown, no real negative effects (aside from Rune Cooldown which in arena could most likely be worked around) and the Death Knight would still be able to peel like a pro off the healer they bring with them.

I don't actually PvP but those are just some of the things that come to mind.

EDIT: I suck at typing today.
Edited by Dryarae on 6/24/2011 8:52 AM PDT
48 Gnome Priest
360
Naw Xayton punch would be the new healer drink.

Makes female healers get drunk and their clothes fa.....


If only I actually drank alcoholic beverages ...
And for your sake a girl IRL.

Average of 25% less armor than shield tanks have.


i still remember when i asked my sister what her Bear had for armor and she can back with a shy "only 46k".

she was iL348, i was iL360.

my jaw was on the floor. i couldn't believe that she had MORE THAN 150% OF THE ARMOR I DID.


I have both a prot pally and a bear at 85. My pally's gear far outshines my bear's. What you say is true.

Back on topic ... It's crazy idea time.

What if we gave DKs a block for 30% with their arm, face, magical DK BS or whatever. Each time a Heart Strike lands it increases block amount by 1% for 1 minute, numbers subject to tweaking. Each HS shield buff has its own timer.

Death Strike heals and armor would be modified to make them on par with other thanks.

Mastery then could be adjusted to increase the block rate or whatever.

Yes, Heart Strike was chosen over Death Strike on purpose although I guess they could be reversed.
Edited by Kahzregi on 6/24/2011 8:52 AM PDT
90 Dwarf Warrior
12710
06/24/2011 07:12 AMPosted by Dosvidaniya
Is Block Capping the problem or is the problem with DKs?

If death knights suffer from physical damage increases intended to threaten block-tanks and CTC tanks, and block-capping isn't a very compelling or dynamic feature of the game, it's the former.

Charsi: returning to the brief, pre-Blue exchange on adjusting Mastery, one of the consequent changes would be lighter boss swings. I figure that might introduce unwanted gameplay with plate classes, etc., so what if physical damage remained similar to what it is now, but all four tanks saw their armor increased via talents?
85 Night Elf Druid
5025
06/24/2011 08:51 AMPosted by Kahzregi
Yes, Heart Strike was chosen over Death Strike on purpose although I guess they could be reversed.


I actually like the idea of Heart Strike being useful. That's one of the reasons I stopped tanking on my Death Knight after Wrath. Why would I change to a spec that uses three buttons for threat when I have a Warrior and a Druid to tank with? I didn't resist the change to Blood because it was necessarily a bad choice. I just thought it was boring. "Ooooh! Throw Death and Decay, Death Strike whenever possible and use Blood Boil like a fiend!"

Yes. I realize it's not as simple as I make it sound and I probably got it wrong, anyway. But that's how I felt at the start of the expansion.

EDIT: I actually did get it completely wrong.
Edited by Dryarae on 6/24/2011 8:58 AM PDT
85 Night Elf Druid
5025
06/24/2011 08:53 AMPosted by Aedilhild
Charsi: returning to the brief, pre-Blue exchange on adjusting Mastery, one of the consequent changes would be lighter boss swings. I figure that might introduce unwanted gameplay with plate classes, etc., so what if physical damage remained similar to what it is now, but all four tanks saw their armor increased via talents?


Some tanks wouldn't need an armor increase, namely Paladins and Warriors, as they already have Block. Druids (arguably by some) wouldn't need it either, though I totally wouldn't be opposed to it. And if this change were to go into effect it would seem to me that Druids and Death Knights, with the absence of Block, would need to have way more armor than Warriors and Paladins to be able to mitigate the same amount of physical damage. That translates badly into PvP, where I hear Blood Death Knights already reign supreme with Frost Mages and Subtlety Rogues.
90 Dwarf Warrior
12710
06/24/2011 09:04 AMPosted by Dryarae
That translates badly into PvP

I was referring to a universe in which block tanks weren't mitigating nearly as often, but now that you mention PvP, the specter of toting around gobs of armor kills the idea.
[quote="27210482628"]This is why I suggested a page back that Blood Shield be split off from Death Strike. Death Strike can remain active, that is, self-healing when you need it. But Blood Shield itself should be a passive chance for damage reduction when hit. Yes, that turns it into block, sort of.

But the only good part about the "active" nature of Death Strike is that you can choose to use it in response to a spike in health. This however runs contrary to the fact that you actually want to use it as much as possible (with exceptions obviously) for consistent Blood Shield coverage.

This is sort of what I was getting at, playing with the idea that Death Strike has so much riding on it. Right now it is needed as both spam (to proc shields) and as a reactive strike (to self-heal). It makes little sens for this one ability to be doing so much for DKs while also expending their primary resource which they have enough trouble managing.
Overall, what I believe they should do is:

1. Reduce the potency of Block, across the board, a lot
How about we make it more interesting for one, passive is boring. The new Holy Shield is a start. I'd like to see less basic block value% and more bonus block value added with Holy Power expenditure. Hitting SOTR all the time and maybe a WOG to help heals is boring.

Block is too potent.
This isn't the issue, it's that DK and Bear mechanics are underpowered by comparison. Paladins and Warriors aren't skating through the content like it's nothing so it's not OP, your mechanics are UP.
[quote]

Is Block Capping the problem or is the problem with DKs?
As I have stated above, I think you guys need a buff. Perhaps not even so much a pure buff to the potency of your mastery or self-healing (though that may be the case). What you need is a buff to the ability to control your primary safety-net ability. Warriors, Paladin, and Druids, we have automatic safety nets in Block and Armor. If you guys are gonna be the manual transmission then you need to have freedom of control and less tied to one single ability.
85 Night Elf Druid
5025
06/24/2011 09:13 AMPosted by Aedilhild
That translates badly into PvP

I was referring to a universe in which block tanks weren't mitigating nearly as often, but now that you mention PvP, the specter of toting around gobs of armor kills the idea.


Normally I don't really care about PvP and think it should be done away with, but the fact that it IS here and shall remain here begs the consideration. I just don't want to have another buff get reverted because people that PvP cry about it.
84 Blood Elf Paladin
1150
Anyone else share the sentiment where one hates having to be a Tank AND a healer on the same toon, while managing encounters?

06/24/2011 09:04 AMPosted by Dryarae
That translates badly into PvP, where I hear Blood Death Knights already reign supreme


This is innacurate... but Blizz did just break Death Strikes healing in PvP (Dark Succor change).

They of course couldn't touch Blood, but they acknowledge that the healing is too high.

They regard Blood PvP 2s teams as a "silly fad."

I'm honestly appalled by the Min heals imbalance in dungeon crawling content. I mean, I hate playing the rune game, and I hate that the healers get bored or DPS assuming I don't spike, but what's my alternative, doing nothing?

I can't sit there and WAIT to take damage, or i'd lose threat.
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