Why Block Capping is Bad

85 Undead Death Knight
5765
06/24/2011 09:24 AMPosted by Horrid
What if they made blood shield an always-on passive, based on mastery, and reduced death strike's self heals a bit?


They wouldn't have to reduce self-heals, assuming it doesn't proc Blood Shield anymore, only thing that would call for self-healing nerfs would be armor buffs (which I would enjoy).

I think we're getting a little too hung up on Death Knights though. While CTC would ruin Death Knights, it extends further than that. It's just bad for the game. It means that CTC tanks effective health is propelled to ridiculous points, and that it becomes nearly impossible to kill them. Combine that with the fact that it's mitigation based, meaning less healer mana wasted, healer's mana pool, efficiency, and regeneration scaling, and you'll have us brought back to the Wrath paradigm in no time. And the Dev's have already stated very specifically that they didn't want to do that.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
06/24/2011 09:33 AMPosted by Corpseicle
And the Dev's have already stated very specifically that they didn't want to do that.

They also said that apparently DK and Druid Masteries have no unintuitive interactions.
48 Gnome Priest
360
06/24/2011 09:33 AMPosted by Corpseicle
While CTC would ruin Death Knights, it extends further than that. It's just bad for the game.


It becomes the new defense cap.

Edit: One DKs and bears can't reach.
Edited by Kahzregi on 6/24/2011 9:39 AM PDT
85 Undead Death Knight
5765
I think they care about raid and encounter design more than Blood and Feral put together multiplied by two. Remember it also has heavy repercussions for the healers as well. I know some who wanted mind going back to Flash of Light spam, but I think generally the mana game makes for a much better design, and think Blizzard agrees.
85 Night Elf Druid
5025
06/24/2011 09:19 AMPosted by Obipwnkenobi
That translates badly into PvP, where I hear Blood Death Knights already reign supreme


This is innacurate... but Blizz did just break Death Strikes healing in PvP (Dark Succor change).


It was heresay. As I said, I don't PvP.
85 Night Elf Druid
5025
I would also much rather play the mana game on my healing toons than Flash of Light spam. And while I agree that it isn't only Death Knights that need to be looked at, Druids are in a much better position and I don't really see much of a way to fix them other than an armor or HP buff which they took away a while ago by nerfing the Bear Form shapeshift mechanic. So other than a partial nerf revert, Druids haven't much to talk about. I personally like Feral Mastery the way it is. While it doesn't give us much in the way of actual physical mitigation, it feels like it fits. Agility gives us quite a bit of crit already, more when you factor in Pulverize which is part of the tanking rotation / priority system, and it's as passive as block. I have more armor than a Death Knight in similar gear and more complete mitigation (before defensive cooldowns) due to my high amount of dodge.

What other class would be able to walk into Bastion of Twilight, start the H Halfus encounter with a potion popped and delay stacks of the Mortal Strike debuff for a good half minute while tanking other mobs and still have higher survivability than the other two tanks? I once got lucky enough, even, to have my stacks fall off twice during the fight before Furious Roars occurred or having the Slate Dragon dead (and I do mean while he was beating on my face). I've never even seen any of the other tanks in my guild get the stacks to fall off once.
Edited by Dryarae on 6/24/2011 9:54 AM PDT
I think we're getting a little too hung up on Death Knights though. While CTC would ruin Death Knights, it extends further than that. It's just bad for the game. It means that CTC tanks effective health is propelled to ridiculous points, and that it becomes nearly impossible to kill them. Combine that with the fact that it's mitigation based, meaning less healer mana wasted, healer's mana pool, efficiency, and regeneration scaling, and you'll have us brought back to the Wrath paradigm in no time. And the Dev's have already stated very specifically that they didn't want to do that.


He underlined portion of your statement is erroneous in an environment where DK self-heals are sufficiently timely and proportionate to the mitigation of a block tank. I am not saying that is the current scenario, but it is what the devs should be shooting for in terms of balance (I think they are, except for the timely part).

As to the larger issue of CTC, it's bad if only because it's a brass ring that once taken a hold of, you find your life significantly more boring. I like the idea of dumping holy power into a mastery scaling bonus block chance/value boost that maybe gives me full CTC for a bit with for use against a huge hit. That would be much more fun than the current paladin model. The warrior model may need some tweaking too but I'd have to spend more time talking to warriors about what they need/lack/enjoy to figure out a solution for them.
75 Troll Druid
670
06/24/2011 09:36 AMPosted by Arielle
They also said that apparently DK and Druid Masteries have no unintuitive interactions.


This is my Druid. I don't know much about SD, so what is unintuitive about it? It seems faily strightforward. 50% chance on non-dot crits, X% of your AP, affected by mastery.
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
06/24/2011 09:33 AMPosted by Corpseicle
I think we're getting a little too hung up on Death Knights though. While CTC would ruin Death Knights, it extends further than that. It's just bad for the game. It means that CTC tanks effective health is propelled to ridiculous points, and that it becomes nearly impossible to kill them.


This is why I said, if you're not gonna nerf Mastery so we can't achieve CTC, then you have to do something about Block so the EH boost from reaching unhittable isn't so huge.

06/24/2011 08:53 AMPosted by Aedilhild
Charsi: returning to the brief, pre-Blue exchange on adjusting Mastery, one of the consequent changes would be lighter boss swings. I figure that might introduce unwanted gameplay with plate classes, etc., so what if physical damage remained similar to what it is now, but all four tanks saw their armor increased via talents?


Yes, if Block was less potent, boss spike damage would be reduced accordingly, meaning DK's (who don't block and have less armor) wouldn't spike as hard...

I wouldn't want to bump AC up any further. Just up the bosses chance to crit and nobody but a tank is going to want to mess with him. Is it really so hard to change the uncrittable talents in each tree to apply to non-player characters only?
Edited by Charsi on 6/24/2011 10:36 AM PDT
85 Undead Death Knight
5765
06/24/2011 10:25 AMPosted by Urudhûm
I think we're getting a little too hung up on Death Knights though. While CTC would ruin Death Knights, it extends further than that. It's just bad for the game. It means that CTC tanks effective health is propelled to ridiculous points, and that it becomes nearly impossible to kill them. Combine that with the fact that it's mitigation based, meaning less healer mana wasted, healer's mana pool, efficiency, and regeneration scaling, and you'll have us brought back to the Wrath paradigm in no time. And the Dev's have already stated very specifically that they didn't want to do that.


He underlined portion of your statement is erroneous in an environment where DK self-heals are sufficiently timely and proportionate to the mitigation of a block tank. I am not saying that is the current scenario, but it is what the devs should be shooting for in terms of balance (I think they are, except for the timely part).


I'm not talking about Death Knights at this point, I'm talking about CTC shield tanks. A CTC shield tank is nearly impossible to kill without obscene non-predictable burst damage, and Blizzard doesn't balance around the low points. Not only will it completely break DK tanking, but it will also severely effect all areas of raiding (DPS may or notwithstanding).

85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10020
06/24/2011 09:33 AMPosted by Corpseicle
What if they made blood shield an always-on passive, based on mastery, and reduced death strike's self heals a bit?


They wouldn't have to reduce self-heals, assuming it doesn't proc Blood Shield anymore, only thing that would call for self-healing nerfs would be armor buffs (which I would enjoy).

I think we're getting a little too hung up on Death Knights though. While CTC would ruin Death Knights, it extends further than that. It's just bad for the game. It means that CTC tanks effective health is propelled to ridiculous points, and that it becomes nearly impossible to kill them. Combine that with the fact that it's mitigation based, meaning less healer mana wasted, healer's mana pool, efficiency, and regeneration scaling, and you'll have us brought back to the Wrath paradigm in no time. And the Dev's have already stated very specifically that they didn't want to do that.

Yes, but go look at the table I posted earlier. Yes, it gives them a large EH boost. However, druids are almost at the same point as a block capped tank in terms of EH. The only outlier is the DK and the block tanks before cap. While I agree that the entire CTC bit is bad for the game; equally problematic is the massive gap on druid EH. Currently, three of the four tanks have the potential to push up to that EH boost (warriors take longer and will likely pay for it). One tank is just left out. That is why people tend to devolve into focusing on DKs. If all the tanks had the same EH during the CTC tiers, it wouldn't matter since the boss damage would just come up accordingly. The big problem is that one tank is never going to make it and another takes longer to get there.
85 Night Elf Warrior
9480
06/24/2011 10:26 AMPosted by Foiblesqt
They also said that apparently DK and Druid Masteries have no unintuitive interactions.


This is my Druid. I don't know much about SD, so what is unintuitive about it? It seems faily strightforward. 50% chance on non-dot crits, X% of your AP, affected by mastery.


What do you not get when your SD absorbs damage? Vengeance. Your Vengeance goes down, your SD goes down. Avoidance lowers the damage taken, reduces your Vengeance and then your SD shields.

A druid's defenses are penalized for having improved defenses. I'd call that counter-intuitive.
75 Troll Druid
670
06/24/2011 10:34 AMPosted by Feandel
What do you not get when your SD absorbs damage? Vengeance.


Right right right. I had thought about it scaling from Vengeance, but not the 'lost' AP from absorbs.

Sometimes I wish they would just really homogenize the tanks. A LOT. I like flavor, but I like balance way more.
85 Undead Death Knight
5765

Yes, but go look at the table I posted earlier. Yes, it gives them a large EH boost. However, druids are almost at the same point as a block capped tank in terms of EH. The only outlier is the DK and the block tanks before cap. While I agree that the entire CTC bit is bad for the game; equally problematic is the massive gap on druid EH. Currently, three of the four tanks have the potential to push up to that EH boost (warriors take longer and will likely pay for it). One tank is just left out. That is why people tend to devolve into focusing on DKs. If all the tanks had the same EH during the CTC tiers, it wouldn't matter since the boss damage would just come up accordingly. The big problem is that one tank is never going to make it and another takes longer to get there.


The thing is that even when all tanks had the ridiculous Effective Health, and were gemming and enchanting for ridiculous effective health, and while there were some classes behind (Warriors) there was no class that was simply unviable, Blizzard still didn't like the EH model. It doesn't just affect tank balance, it creates a very specific model for encounter design that Blizzard wants to stay away from.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
06/24/2011 10:34 AMPosted by Feandel


This is my Druid. I don't know much about SD, so what is unintuitive about it? It seems faily strightforward. 50% chance on non-dot crits, X% of your AP, affected by mastery.


What do you not get when your SD absorbs damage? Vengeance. Your Vengeance goes down, your SD goes down. Avoidance lowers the damage taken, reduces your Vengeance and then your SD shields.

A druid's defenses are penalized for having improved defenses. I'd call that counter-intuitive.

Not only that, but Hit and Expertise both improve the number of times a SD bubble will proc. And then Dodge also makes the chance a bubble will survive to absorb a hit increase, but at the expense of Vengeance decay which can make the bubble smaller.

But yeah, basically the amount of the absorb gets lower on average as your gear increases vs a constant damage intake.
90 Human Paladin
13335
06/24/2011 10:34 AMPosted by Dosvidaniya
The only outlier is the DK and the block tanks before cap


This is actually a serious issue, and one of the main reasons that being able to block cap is bad.

It really becomes the new defense cap. Blizzard did away with Defense for entirely this reason, and now it's coming back for paladins and warriors. Any paladin, especially, who is under 102.4% CTC will be underpowered if they scale up boss damage. That's not even saying anything of what will happen to the other 3 tanks (nothing good).
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
It's more like back to TBC, where some tanks take crushing blows (err.. unblocked hits). We have two tanks that can push unblocked hits off the table and two that cannot. One of the two that cannot has increased AC. The other has reduced AC.

/strokes neckbeard thoughtfully

What could possibly go wrong?
Edited by Charsi on 6/24/2011 11:39 AM PDT
48 Gnome Priest
360
06/24/2011 11:29 AMPosted by Dekkar
It really becomes the new defense cap. Blizzard did away with Defense for entirely this reason, and now it's coming back for paladins and warriors. Any paladin, especially, who is under 102.4% CTC will be underpowered if they scale up boss damage.


Well, part of the reason defense was done away with was that there wasn't a reasonable way, outside of outside research, to know when you hit this very vital cap.

Now that I've said that 102.4% isn't entirely intuitive either. Hrm. This -is- just like the old defense.
85 Undead Death Knight
5765
Including base miss chances, base dodge, and then crazy %!%! like strength, and the fact it's not 100, it's 102.4, it makes asking for 540 (that was it, right?) defense laughable.
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