Why Block Capping is Bad

90 Night Elf Druid
17755
The point was they are concerned enough about average damage taken to make adjustments on the sub 1% level, but turn a blind eye to 40-50% disparities in effective health because supposedly that doesn't matter in the cataclysm age design paradigm.


They're concerned enough to buff base dodge in a patch that removes dodge from agility to make using agility gear less attractive but not actually nerf tanks because the change isn't meant to nerf tanks. That's a good thing.

Your "point" is silly (which is code for pointless whining).
Edited by Slashlove on 6/24/2011 10:01 PM PDT
75 Troll Druid
670
06/24/2011 10:00 PMPosted by Slashlove
The point was they are concerned enough about average damage taken to make adjustments on the sub 1% level, but turn a blind eye to 40-50% disparities in effective health because supposedly that doesn't matter in the cataclysm age design paradigm.


Because adding the dodge from agi is the same amount of work as completely changing how at least 2 tanks work.

totally.
85 Human Paladin
6375
I may have completely missed like 20 pages of this thread....but for the record....DK's and scaling should not be a problem. I saw a post earlier saying that an effective solution to current mechanics was to spam DS and RS to get as many DS out as possible.

I've been pwning on my DK since level 1, so listen up. (Intentional meme).

Pay attention to how much damage you are taking at any given time. Tanking Cho'gall for an example. Generally he likes to hit around 40k or so, unless afflicted with debuffs, in which I've been hit upwards of 80-100k. Even when I have two stacks on me, and I'm being hit like a truck, I can very easily react and mitigate a large amount of the damage. By stacking mastery and having a decent amount of passive avoidance from my gear. Wait until your second set of Death Runes are about to fill up, then death strike. Hold on to your runes while continually cycling them as to not waste them. Screw over-capping runic power. It's wasted if you're trying to spam death strikes for 10-15k. When you start taking several 80k+ hits, your heals are going to get pretty high up there. I've had my DS heals get up to 80k. Hit that, then I start spamming as much as I can until my heals are no longer as effective. Utilizing that, I can get a shield up to my maximum health(Around 180-190k) in two death strikes when taking a lot of damage. Combined with my avoidance, that's quite a bit burst of EH in a moment where I really need it. I've paired with a Pally, Warrior, and Druid tank. And in all occasions I generally took maybe 500k-1m more damage, but healed back 150-200% of it. Effectively requiring less healing than the other tanks. Which is what the fights are about. Not how much damage you are taking, but how much healing you need. Not to mention, we have a very low CD that increases the amount of healing you take by quite a bit.....Which is practically a lay on hands combined with a couple low-cost heals from a healer and your own heals. I've been at 10% health, popped it, and been at full, and accidentally overhealed, within' a couple of seconds.

TL;DR Less QQ, moar lrn2faceroll.
85 Human Paladin
6375
One more quick point.....
I've been last alive at a raid wipe several times and kept myself alive without a healer for plenty of time to take 5+ hits. In fact, I've stayed alive so long at times, that I've been yelled at by the raid leader because I was holding up the raid.

That wasn't the main point...just a side note.
A much more annoying problem with DK tanks in my own opinion is that DK tanks, if not specced in to Crimson Scourge, have practically NO AoE ability.
Now, I personally specced out of it when I became our main tank for our raids. Mainly because most fights with only one tank in this tier, have had relatively no need for AoE, and survivability in those fights are of much more importance than me having the ability to AoE effectively. Usually if a tank requires AoE add tanking, we have an off tank to do it.

Since I'm doing that in order to increase my performance in raids, as a large amount of responsibility is on me to do so as a tank...I find myself never running heroics. I jump in to a heroic and find myself spamming everything I possibly can as well as popping CDs, just to keep AoE threat. Anything more than 3 targets, gets to be pretty annoying. Especially since as a DK, I have to be very attentive to my health and how much damage I am taking, in order to maintain efficient mitigation. While using up all my runes to generate AoE threat, I save little room for DS, so I have to blow CDs in order to save my (possibly 333~ geared) healer from going oom too fast. Not only do we lack AoE threat generation(Even when specced in to crimson scourge, it remains challenging at times to hold threat and still maintain a decent amount of DS and shield uptime.) we then lack the ability to mitigate the damage we take when we have 5-6 adds on us.

My two cents.....
Get rid of Crimson Scourge....Having sufficient AoE threat should come from rotation, not a freaking talent. Passively increase the damage of Blood Boil by a good amount, and the threat generation of it as well. As then we could still use DS, and simply use Blood Boil with our blood runes instead. DK's are complex enough, making their AoE rotation simple isn't going to kill the class. Pallys can AoE all day long, heal themselves slightly if they want, lay on hands if they almost die, and they passively block things. When they AoE, their shield doesn't say, "olol too busy aoeing, soz". So DK's mitigation shouldn't be rendered useless in a struggle for AoE threat either.

Fix it. I want to run heroics again without having to get rid of my dps spec for 2 measly talent points so I can raid and run heroics.
85 Human Paladin
6375
06/24/2011 05:29 PMPosted by Bludhoof
In the real world, you don't go 10 seconds at a time without heals, just as EH was never a really strong metric, it's still not now. I can take 3 hits, I cannot take 4. No amount of Stam or mitigation is going to bring me close to taking 4. However, correct and intelligent play can.


Why all the stamina gems, tauren race, and leatherworking prof if you think EH is so worthless for DKs?

I don't think you realize how high your EH is compared to other DKs who are following the common gearing strategies of the other tanks: minimizing average damage taken (which in the case of paladins also gives them extremely high EH).


First of all, I don't quite understand his gearing at all. His mitigation is just barely higher than mine and he's in much better gear. He simply has a larger health pool. I don't think anyone quite understands how terrible stam stacking is for DKs. Even if you can reach 250k health, your DS heals are only going to be at 17.5k. And that's base. It does nothing to increase your DS heals when it exceeds that. It's based off of the damage you've taken in the past 5s or at least 7% of your health. Your primary mitigation is the combination of the health you heal back which basically just helps the healer top you off, and getting those really big blood shields out there. And the quickest and most efficient way to do that is to stack mastery. Say I don't stack stam at all. Sure...my health might be around 190-200k(Assuming higher gear levels), but I get my mastery up to say...150%. Commonly in raids currently, when I'm actually taking damage that requires heals, I hit around 30-40k DS heals. Let's say I throw up one 40k heal after being hit. 20% of 200k is 40k. So I took 200k damage(Roughly my maximum health, survivable with attentive heals, without accounting for DS used to cycle runes). I throw out a 40k heal, which also throws up a 60k shield. That's effectively a 100k mitigation. I just cut the damage I took in half in one GCD. Not to mention, since I hold on to my runes and only cycle them, I can easily follow up with a DS after that GCD. So 200k mitigation in two GCDs....Not to mention the use of our other CDs that have a very short timer. Perfectly timed death strikes are practically our own mini-CD. So once again, it's really pointless to QQ about DKs. When played right, they can do extraordinary things.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465
I don't really feel like recapping 25 pages of thread for you, so I'll just say Xayton PUNCH!
20 Tauren Warrior
10280
That has nothing to do with damage taken. That was done to keep agility pieces from being really good if not best in slot for plate tanks.


Duh of course the original change was about agi gearing, and was a good change. The compensation was about not nerfing tanks as a result, but it was an extremely small compensation. Do you really think any warrior/pally/dk read that they wouldn't get agi from dodge anymore and was "outraged!", then saw the other note where they'll be getting an extra ~.7% base dodge and 80 parry rating and concluded "phew, I'll still be viable!"?

Because adding the dodge from agi is the same amount of work as completely changing how at least 2 tanks work.

totally.


I don't think anyone expects them to pull some redesigns out of their hat anytime soon. What's more concerning is in this very thread they don't think there's even a potential problem with bosses meleeing for 70k or more, or that those situations even exist, or that block capping creates enormous EH disparities. You're naive if you think Heroic Rags is going melee DKs for anything less than ~80k, simply because "well, he's supposed to be the hardest boss of the tier." I mean, how silly would it be to have the lord of the elemental plane of fire, with his legendary hammer sulfuras, to end up hitting weaker than blind failed experiment runt atramedes?
Edited by Bludhoof on 6/25/2011 11:04 AM PDT
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
06/25/2011 06:26 AMPosted by Wrathblood
I don't really feel like recapping 25 pages of thread for you, so I'll just say Xayton PUNCH!


Holy crap this...

Geez some people...
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
06/25/2011 03:15 AMPosted by Holigrim
First of all, I don't quite understand his gearing at all. His mitigation is just barely higher than mine and he's in much better gear. He simply has a larger health pool. I don't think anyone quite understands how terrible stam stacking is for DKs. Even if you can reach 250k health, your DS heals are only going to be at 17.5k.


It seems to me the point isnt to make base DS better, but to survive long enough to DS (and/or be healed).

Once your healers gear up to or past an encounter, and their mana requirements become relaxed (or your dps improves and the boss dies faster) then all you have to do is survive so the heals land.
Edited by Charsi on 6/25/2011 11:41 AM PDT
78 Undead Death Knight
630
I have been playing this game for three years when I started the game glitched twice as less and there was actualy a challenge to it for example in most starting areas there are only one "red" beast or humanoid or demon or so on my point is that before well in the orc starting area the whole cave and all of the demons around it were "red" and would attack if you if you got close enough I love how they changed most things and im sure people love how you dont need as much excpierience As do I alot has changed this game is still my favorite to play.
Like this if you would and comment.
75 Troll Druid
670
Is capping the thread about block capping being bad as bad as block capping? And what of this recapping the thread on block capping before thread capping?

And should I macro /cast Xayton Punch to all of my DK abilities, like old Rune Strike?


I just want to make the Continued thread so I can title it "It's still bad"
85 Worgen Druid
3755

TL;DR Less QQ, moar lrn2faceroll.


Full marks for completely missing the point of the entire thread and contributing nothing of value to the discussion.

Downrating your post.
85 Night Elf Death Knight
14080
And another tank topic ending on a high note.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465
06/25/2011 11:10 AMPosted by Fasc
I don't really feel like recapping 25 pages of thread for you, so I'll just say Xayton PUNCH!


Holy crap this...

Geez some people...


Yeah, I thought that part of the discussion was kinda dumb as well, but this struck me as possibly the only legitimate use for it, so I figured might as well go for it.

Still, this is kind of the beauty of tanking threads, you never know what will end up interesting. Some of the best early Cata threads started as trolling, but were redeemed like 5 pages in and were fantastic after that. This thread has swung back and forth between interesting and pointless more times than I can count.
90 Orc Warrior
10130
06/25/2011 01:01 PMPosted by Wrathblood
This thread has swung back and forth between interesting and pointless more times than I can count.


Imo, it's been pretty reductive the whole way.

I started with #%#* that everyone should know already, Blue came in and gave the only response they could possibly give, people countered it . . . blah blah blah. All covered ground. I didn't learn that much this thread.
85 Tauren Druid
10680
This scenario assumes that the tank is getting no heals, and/or is doing no self-healing.

And well it should: If the Paladin is in 5-shot territory, then it becomes very difficult to kill him. If you increase boss damage to the point where the Paladin is in 2/3-shot territory, then you're going to kill the DK before he can be healed or heal himself.


This was the thread right here. Any additional posts were beating a dead horse.

Edit: Minus the responses with parses following the rebuttal to the above, and fasc's very well written post somewhere in the next page or so.
Edited by Monkar on 6/25/2011 5:41 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Duh of course the original change was about agi gearing, and was a good change. The compensation was about not nerfing tanks as a result, but it was an extremely small compensation. Do you really think any warrior/pally/dk read that they wouldn't get agi from dodge anymore and was "outraged!", then saw the other note where they'll be getting an extra ~.7% base dodge and 80 parry rating and concluded "phew, I'll still be viable!"?


The point was to not change the numbers in a change that was meant to not change those numbers overall. That's why both the reduction and the compensation were done in one stroke, not because of some mythical viability crap. Buffing Base Dodge is important because it keeps the context of the original change (no dodge from agi) within its original context instead of spilling over to unintended effects (no matter how minor).

That's 100% awesome.
Edited by Slashlove on 6/25/2011 9:08 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6235
06/24/2011 08:44 PMPosted by Bludhoof
The point was they are concerned enough about average damage taken to make adjustments on the sub 1% level, but turn a blind eye to 40-50% disparities in effective health because supposedly that doesn't matter in the cataclysm age design paradigm.


The change to AGI's dodge conversion was not about adjusting average damage taken. It was about disincentivizing the use of AGI jewelry.

The fact that base dodge was changed to compensate just meant that they did not want tanks to take more damage as a result of the initiative, but does not mean that they're concerned with tank balance as such a micro level.
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