Why Block Capping is Bad

100 Human Hunter
12525
Change Mastery for DK's to: X% Mastery = 70% chance to dodge or parry said attack, unaffected by DR, no self healing overshield crap. Death Strike reverted to how it was before the overshield change. Death & Decay changed from droppable ring to an X yard AoE from where the DK is standing so that it functions more like pally Consecrate.

Paladin & Warrior Mastery doesn't get nerfed at all.

Problem solved.

....and before people start flaming this post, yes I have 4 tanks. One of each class.
Edited by Ärdeth on 6/22/2011 12:17 PM PDT
85 Night Elf Warrior
0
06/22/2011 12:13 PMPosted by Aedilhild
I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We might want some secondary effect to ease the increased damage intake but taking a few unmitigated hits in the face would let the bosses not need to hit as hard to actually threaten us.


An open combat table is ok. Just like a covered combat table is. The problem is when some people have an open one and some have a covered one.


I can't argue with that, especially if it's a change within logistical reason. All mechanics being equal, I'd rather have an open table than a closed one.


Open combat table leaves more room for progressive character growth. A closed one has greatly reduced room for improvement as evidenced by the continuing debate about Paladin and Warrior mastery scaling issues.
Community Manager


The problem with block capping is that if we were to have a boss hit a paladin for 50K, that same boss hits a DK for 74K. All of a sudden, three hits in a row on a DK adds up to 222K, while it only comes to 150K for the paladin. Block capping means that "spikes" mean something different to a paladin than a DK (and to a lesser extent a warrior). A DK in three shot territory is a paladin in 4 or 5 shot territory. That's a problem for game design.


This scenario assumes that the tank is getting no heals, and/or is doing no self-healing. A tank facing off against a boss that is hitting for 50-74K per hit is at a huge disadvantage if no healer is participating, or the tank fails to self-heal.

That's not a game design problem at all.

The entire DK tanking model is predicated on taking more damage, but having roughly the same survivability as other tanking classes.
Edited by Kaivax on 6/22/2011 12:20 PM PDT
85 Gnome Death Knight
7355
Change Mastery for DK's to: X% Mastery = 70% chance to dodge or parry said attack, unaffected by DR, no self healing overshield crap. Death Strike reverted to how it was before the overshield change. Death & Decay changed from droppable ring to work more like pally Consecrate.

Paladin & Warrior Mastery doesn't get nerfed at all.

Problem solved.

....and before people start flaming this post, yes I have 3 tanks.


But obviously not a DK.

Death Strike has always healed, it used to be based on # of diseases on the target, now it's based on recent damage.

Bloodshield isn't based on overheal, it's based on just flat out the heal.

70% pure avoidance would avoidance cap any DK tank raiding. Naxx 2.0 taught what happens with pure avoidance % gains (unholy tanks able to keep boneshield up at all times because we were only getting hit 5 times a minute).

How would this mastery scale up with points? Higher % of avoidance? How does it trigger?

WTF does D&D have to do with a thread about mastery?
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
06/22/2011 12:20 PMPosted by Kaivax
This scenario assumes that the tank is getting no heals, and/or is doing no self-healing. A tank facing off against a boss that is hitting for 50-74K per hit is at a huge disadvantage if no healer is participating, or the tank fails to self-heal.


While it is true that his model doesn't have any outside healing, that doesn't mean it's not still a problem. Your own developers said DKs are balanced around 6 DS / min, or roughly one every 10 seconds. Three swings takes 3.6s starting from when the first one lands. A DK's shield is only going to absorb roughly 1 full hit, and the rest won't be covered except by avoidance. In a situation where avoidance is unfavorable, that DK tank is going to eat all three fully unmitigated swings. If you combine that in a situation where a healer has to move, which probably takes a second or so, by the time they start casting, the DK is done for. All of that can very easily happen in that 10s window.
Edited by Euliat on 6/22/2011 12:31 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8060
Just an idle thought. Maybe block-capping isn't such an overall problem.

Pallys are going to block cap now/soon. After which pallies won't scale at all well. The only other place pallies have to throw stat points is either against diminishing returns (dodge & parry) or stam (bosses aren't supposed to 1/2-shot tanks, stam shouldn't be a big deal). Given that pallies are going to hit a gearing wall, the other tanks will catch up in terms of effectiveness, presumably not too far afterwards.

Warriors won't block cap till later, so perhaps it will be late enough in the expansion that they won't have enough time for them being block-capped AND get enough spare stat points to provide an unacceptable advantage over the other tanks.

Lots of "ifs" and "maybes" but it was just a thought.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
13570


The problem with block capping is that if we were to have a boss hit a paladin for 50K, that same boss hits a DK for 74K. All of a sudden, three hits in a row on a DK adds up to 222K, while it only comes to 150K for the paladin. Block capping means that "spikes" mean something different to a paladin than a DK (and to a lesser extent a warrior). A DK in three shot territory is a paladin in 4 or 5 shot territory. That's a problem for game design.


This scenario assumes that the tank is getting no heals, and/or is doing no self-healing. A tank facing off against a boss that is hitting for 50-74K per hit is at a huge disadvantage if no healer is participating, or the tank fails to self-heal.

That's not a game design problem at all.

The entire DK tanking model is predicated on taking more damage, but having roughly the same survivability as other tanking classes.


The EH model is designed around the no-heals viewpoint.

It was primarily used in Wrath because the bosses were capable of decimating tanks in a couple of swings. As such, the goal was to give the healer as much time as possible (in case they had to move or heal someone else) while they bombed heals on you when they could.

The change in Cata appears to quickly approach this model and the healing model actually causes EH to become important. Lets assume we have a healer. The healer on the CTC tank slowly goes down and finally the healer uses a large heal to compensate instead of the cheap heal. The DK spikes much more quickly. The healer bombs fast heals. Assuming mana is an issue, the CTC design severely hurts mana.

If we operate under the paradigm where healer mana doesn't matter, the same EH model from Wrath pops up. Healers have to move and that means taking a few hits without support. EH really matters when throughput is king.
90 Human Warrior
13005
06/22/2011 12:20 PMPosted by Kaivax
This scenario assumes that the tank is getting no heals, and/or is doing no self-healing. A tank facing off against a boss that is hitting for 50-74K per hit is at a huge disadvantage if no healer is participating, or the tank fails to self-heal.

Which is great in theory.

But in practice, even non-DK tanks are at enough of a risk of dying to burst damage that a lot of heroic progression tanks stack stamina. For DKs, the burst damage is even more extreme, and if that burst lands in between your Death Strikes, you're dead.

You can mathematically take the same amount of damage as other tanks, but if your damage intake is burstier, then you'll die. Imagine if one tank took 1 million damage over a five minute fight, while another tank took 1 million damage in the first five seconds and then none at all for the rest of the encounter. Obviously, that's an exaggerated example, but you see my point. Moment to moment matters just as much as overall.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
This scenario assumes that the tank is getting no heals, and/or is doing no self-healing. A tank facing off against a boss that is hitting for 50-74K per hit is at a huge disadvantage if no healer is participating, or the tank fails to self-heal.

That's not a game design problem at all.

The entire DK tanking model is predicated on taking more damage, but having roughly the same survivability as other tanking classes.

So you've basically just said that DKs will need to stack Stamina at the expense of everything else in a world where block-capping occurs.

In order for a DK to be able maintain their survivability, they have to be able to survive the incoming damage first. If you intend to make the incoming damage challenging for block-capped tanks it's impossible.

Block capping presents two paths if it's not seen as a problem:

1) Block tanks take so little damage that they are by far the preferred tank for anything.
2) In order for block tanks to have anything resembling threatening incoming damage, DKs get 2-shotted.

I think there's a disconnect somewhere.
87 Tauren Warrior
8105
This scenario assumes that the tank is getting no heals, and/or is doing no self-healing. A tank facing off against a boss that is hitting for 50-74K per hit is at a huge disadvantage if no healer is participating, or the tank fails to self-heal.

That's not a game design problem at all.

The entire DK tanking model is predicated on taking more damage, but having roughly the same survivability as other tanking classes.


and it only works as long as you are outside 3 shot territory, which by your(Zarhym/blizzard ) own admission DK's are not.. "Dk's die to spiky damage more often."
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6235
06/22/2011 12:20 PMPosted by Kaivax
This scenario assumes that the tank is getting no heals, and/or is doing no self-healing.

And well it should: If the Paladin is in 5-shot territory, then it becomes very difficult to kill him. If you increase boss damage to the point where the Paladin is in 2/3-shot territory, then you're going to kill the DK before he can be healed or heal himself.
100 Night Elf Druid
6400
06/22/2011 09:34 AMPosted by Mithsploit
Block capping is bad for the game. It's exceptionally bad for the classes that can't block cap, but it's bad for the game, because boss damage rises to compensate, so healers have to heal harder, you see where this is going? Repeating the mistakes of Wrath.


It's not bad for the game if the non-block tanks have armor value bonuses that can be increased naturally through gear/mastery such that if Block tanks have full CTC and thus at minimum have 30%/40%/whatever% reduction, that non-Block tanks at roughly the same gear/mastery level also cap out at 30%/40%/whatever% reduction from armor value.


But in order to add in that additional % damage reduction through an increase is armor added to the already average % consistent between the tank classes, would this pose the risk of forcing armor capping on non block tanks.

Don't get me wrong I love the idea of a static armor capped reduction, but on top of the passive (talents) damage reduction of bears already and the active (cooldown) reduction available to DK's would this model be ungoldy overpowered in a pvp setting? Or for that matter even in hard hitting melee PVE encounters.

Again forgive me if I'm totally off here on my thinking, theorycrafting is no where near my specialty.
85 Blood Elf Warrior
9070
In theory at a 1.2 second swing timer you seem pretty on par, but taking into account almost all swing timers are longer, DKS have more cds for a reason to rotate their cds (and on shorter timers) you're looking at them just standing there doing nothing. This isn't realistic at all in a raid environment. (you're also not taking into account that the bone shield which would be on to start the encounter). I don't see this as realistic or even close to comparison at all.
90 Gnome Death Knight
6880
06/22/2011 12:37 PMPosted by Zadeikan
In theory at a 1.2 second swing timer you seem pretty on par, but taking into account almost all swing timers are longer, DKS have more cds for a reason to rotate their cds (and on shorter timers) you're looking at them just standing there doing nothing. This isn't realistic at all in a raid environment. (you're also not taking into account that the bone shield which would be on to start the encounter). I don't see this as realistic or even close to comparison at all.


That "1.2 second swing timer" is not what Eul was talking about. He's talking about a 1.8s timer, which is what many bosses have.

Edit: Additionally, DKs do have extra CDs. But they still won't have 100% CD coverage. Any time without CD coverage would put them at this burst risk still.
Edited by Cleatsz on 6/22/2011 12:41 PM PDT
87 Tauren Warrior
8105

In theory at a 1.2 second swing timer you seem pretty on par, but taking into account almost all swing timers are longer, DKS have more cds for a reason to rotate their cds (and on shorter timers) you're looking at them just standing there doing nothing. This isn't realistic at all in a raid environment. (you're also not taking into account that the bone shield which would be on to start the encounter). I don't see this as realistic or even close to comparison at all.


/facepalm.

with the cd's we are still in 3 shot territory while the paladin is in 5 shot. This argument is as tired and worn out as the undead horse in yonder field.
85 Night Elf Warrior
0
The problem that I see at first glance is that while A) the DK spikes lower and B) has tools to recover from it the thing mitigating that aspect is that C) these tools are only available at set intervals that are far fewer between then large potential damage spikes are.

For example, if DS is only used once every 10 seconds (6 per minute) that means that a DS heal/shield is only available for 16.6% of the active combat time. In addition to that, they have Blood Tap once every 30 seconds. Beyond that DKs aren't in any better of position to manage physical damage than any other tank as their CDs beyond those are not any more frequent or more potent than any other tank's are.

So that presents roughly a 75% time frame of active combat time where a DK cannot respond to being spiked harder than other tanks. That's simply too damn much. And this is using Blizzard's own metrics.

And you can't bring healers into the debate in a positive manner. Why? Because we've already established that the shorter a healer's response time gets, the more mana it costs to heal that tank. DKs are going to require significantly more mana to heal as effectively as the other tanks will.

Are you starting to see the problem? Even on their OWN metrics, DKs are going to have a very hard time responding to incoming spikes appropriately, a problem that "automatic tanks" simply will not have because they won't be getting spiked in the first place. Even before we bring healers into the argument, DKs are in an inferior place to non-dk Tanks, and that place only gets worse when you do bring in healers.

Now maybe you do or don't (will or won't) tune fights so tightly that it will matter. That doesn't change the fact that are markedly less effective as tanks.

And before we go down the road of "well magical damage" let us not forget who the reigning "god" of magic damage mitigation is: the DK. Or are you suggesting that we're back to "niche" tanking designs?
Edited by Feandel on 6/22/2011 12:45 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
06/22/2011 12:40 PMPosted by Cleatsz
That "1.2 second swing timer" is not what Eul was talking about. He's talking about a 1.8s timer, which is what many bosses have.

Essentially what healer in their right mind would want to put out 41k HPS on a tank when they could be doing 27k?

For reals?
85 Gnome Death Knight
7355
06/22/2011 12:37 PMPosted by Zadeikan
In theory at a 1.2 second swing timer you seem pretty on par, but taking into account almost all swing timers are longer, DKS have more cds for a reason to rotate their cds (and on shorter timers) you're looking at them just standing there doing nothing. This isn't realistic at all in a raid environment. (you're also not taking into account that the bone shield which would be on to start the encounter). I don't see this as realistic or even close to comparison at all.


Most of our "extra" cooldowns come at the cost of deathstrikes (either through direct rune competition, or pooling RP preventing RE procs). All using them does is move the spike to a different spot in the timeline.
90 Night Elf Druid
5900
This scenario assumes that the tank is getting no heals, and/or is doing no self-healing. A tank facing off against a boss that is hitting for 50-74K per hit is at a huge disadvantage if no healer is participating, or the tank fails to self-heal.

That's not a game design problem at all.

The entire DK tanking model is predicated on taking more damage, but having roughly the same survivability as other tanking classes.

So you've basically just said that DKs will need to stack Stamina at the expense of everything else in a world where block-capping occurs.

In order for a DK to be able maintain their survivability, they have to be able to survive the incoming damage first. If you intend to make the incoming damage challenging for block-capped tanks it's impossible.

Block capping presents two paths if it's not seen as a problem:

1) Block tanks take so little damage that they are by far the preferred tank for anything.
2) In order for block tanks to have anything resembling threatening incoming damage, DKs get 2-shotted.

I think there's a disconnect somewhere.


Well said, Arielle.
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
*shakes head*

In lieu of having anything to say that wont get me banned, i'll just point at what Prinzesa and Arielle have said. If you don't understand what they're getting at, feel free to ask.
Edited by Charsi on 6/22/2011 12:47 PM PDT
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