Why Block Capping is Bad

85 Night Elf Death Knight
9115
Cataclysm bosses aren't designed to work that way. A moderately-geared tank should not be in grave danger from Cho'gall producing 40K melee swings. The danger comes when Cho'gall uses Flaming Destruction for 80K while hitting with a melee swing. In that situation, the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive. And for either the paladin or the DK, stipulating low incoming heals is a bit unrealistic.


Heroic Cho'gall and Sinestra have hit me for 80-100k before (100k being rare), without flaming destruction.
Edited by Rieth on 6/22/2011 1:26 PM PDT
85 Night Elf Druid
4965
06/22/2011 01:25 PMPosted by Rieth
Cataclysm bosses aren't designed to work that way. A moderately-geared tank should not be in grave danger from Cho'gall producing 40K melee swings. The danger comes when Cho'gall uses Flaming Destruction for 80K while hitting with a melee swing. In that situation, the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive. And for either the paladin or the DK, stipulating low incoming heals is a bit unrealistic.


Heroic Cho'gall and Sinestra have hit me for 80-100k before (100k being rare), without flaming destruction.


Exactly the point here, it's on the heroic bosses where this really comes into play. From what I've gone through of my guilds logs the normal modes essentually hit for crap in comparison to tank health pools.
13 Undead Warlock
40
06/22/2011 12:33 PMPosted by Muspel
Moment to moment matters just as much as overall.


This i feel is the problem made worse by the randomness and often times slow rune refreshes which is made worse by slows that won't effect other tanks nearly as severely.
Yes we can let runes sit and wait for that big hit we know is coming, yet we are liable to take another unaccounted for spike dmg before the known spike causing us to use the FU pairs prematurely leaving us wide open to the big attack.
Now if our rune refresh rate was a bit faster just for picking the blood tree or taking a talent need in blood we would be able to be a lil less spikey even if the blood shields were slightly smaller. A higher percentage change to refresh a rune from runic empowerment would also do nearly the same thing.

I'm not sure that the devs understand that we're not necessarily concerned with overall damage taken so much as we are concerned about the burst dmg taken. I personally could careless if I take 1M more dmg than the otehr tank in a 5 minute fight if I was so vulnerable to being burst down.
85 Orc Death Knight
9745
06/22/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Kaivax
Cataclysm bosses aren't designed to work that way. A moderately-geared tank should not be in grave danger from Cho'gall producing 40K melee swings.


So what you're saying is you don't take Heroic modes into account when you post about the current tanking model/damage intake?
85 Undead Death Knight
5765
I'm really not even going to comment on this. There's a misunderstanding with DK mechanics, QoL issues, and problems on the one hand, and than there's information that's just plain incorrect and ridiculous.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270

The danger comes when Cho'gall uses Flaming Destruction for 80K while hitting with a melee swing. In that situation, the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive.


I thought DK mastery did not work on magic or does the game not count that as magic? Sorry im lost.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 6/22/2011 1:36 PM PDT
90 Goblin Warrior
9455
Just looking at a recent Blood Legion WoL for heroic Cho'gall kill, the average melee swing cho'gall did to the tanks was 57k (The DK OT was 60k per swing average). That takes into account all the mitigated hits as well. I'm not a WoL expert so I don't know how to find how much an unabsorbed/unblocked hits for, but its still large. So we're getting awfully close to the 80k per swing scenario, unless Blizzard is saying bosses are never gonna hit any harder than heroics do now.
Edited by Kaosklash on 6/22/2011 1:38 PM PDT
85 Undead Death Knight
5765
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The danger comes when Cho'gall uses Flaming Destruction for 80K while hitting with a melee swing. In that situation, the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive.


I thought DK mastery did not work on magic or does the game not count that as magic? Sorry im lost.


"Hi, we're taking 80k physical tank swings and are threatened with being two-shot and it's only going to get worse."

"You have Anti-Magic Shell."
90 Human Paladin
12980
06/22/2011 01:36 PMPosted by Kaosklash
Just looking at a recent Blood Legion WoL for heroic Cho'gall kill, the average melee swing cho'gall did to the tanks was 57k (The DK OT was 60k per swing average). So we're getting awfully close to the 80k per swing scenario, unless Blizzard is saying bosses are never gonna hit any harder than heroics do now.


An unblocked hit from Heroic Theralion is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 70k.
90 Human Death Knight
10870
I thought DK mastery did not work on magic or does the game not count that as magic? Sorry im lost.

It does in a roundabout way. Death strike healing is based off of the damage taken in past 5 seconds regardless of source or type, and the mastery is a percentage physical absorb off of the death strike heal. Because of that, magic hits are counted in the damage taken, which increases the heal which increases the physical absorb after the fact.
1 Goblin Warrior
0
Yarrthas said it better.
Edited by Grymix on 6/22/2011 1:40 PM PDT
58 Gnome Death Knight
0


Cataclysm bosses aren't designed to work that way. A moderately-geared tank should not be in grave danger from Cho'gall producing 40K melee swings. The danger comes when Cho'gall uses Flaming Destruction for 80K while hitting with a melee swing. In that situation, the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive. And for either the paladin or the DK, stipulating low incoming heals is a bit unrealistic.

I'm not saying that -- hypothetically -- we couldn't implement a fight with this exact problem. These concerns are reasonable; it happened in encounters in Wrath of the Lich King. But we aren't designing boss encounters like that today, because the experience of tanks suddenly and unexpectedly dying isn't fun.

Note: Flaming Destruction should be expected, and not terribly sudden.

But the only way healers can compensate for sudden, unexpected spikes in damage is to spam heals without stopping. Besides the "not fun" aspect, we aren't designing fights that way because it would negate the entire mana game we're trying to create.


I thought DK mastery did not work on magic or does the game not count that as magic? Sorry im lost.

He's saying that, for predictable phases where there is high magic damage (e.g. Flame's Orders), "the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive". Presumably, by DK tools he has things like AMS in mind. I have no clue why Paladin Block is mentioned at all in that sentence, since DK Blood Shields do nothing in that same scenario. Whereas if we're going to bring in "DK tools" like AMS, then we should bring in "Paladin tools" as well - the point being that predictable burst from boss is countered by CDs.
90 Goblin Warrior
9455
Just looking at a recent Blood Legion WoL for heroic Cho'gall kill, the average melee swing cho'gall did to the tanks was 57k (The DK OT was 60k per swing average). So we're getting awfully close to the 80k per swing scenario, unless Blizzard is saying bosses are never gonna hit any harder than heroics do now.


An unblocked hit from Heroic Theralion is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 70k.


I'll have to take your word for it and I believe you. I just don't wanna link logs for WoL for guilds without their permission. Can someone link a WoL to prove to Blizzard that we are already seeing 70-80k unmitigated hits?
Edited by Kaosklash on 6/22/2011 1:40 PM PDT
85 Gnome Death Knight
7355
06/22/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Ahasuerus
He's saying that, for predictable phases where there is high magic damage (e.g. Flame's Orders), "the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive". Presumably, by DK tools he has things like AMS in mind. I have no clue why Paladin Block is mentioned at all in that sentence, since DK Blood Shields do nothing in that same scenario. Whereas if we're going to bring in "DK tools" like AMS, then we should bring in "Paladin tools" as well - the point being that predictable burst from boss is countered by CDs.


He's saying that we'll receive a larger heal/shield as a result of the magic damage, whereas the pally will still "only" block for 30% of the physical damage.
48 Gnome Priest
360
Here's a bit of a radical idea for Paladins at least:

1. Mastery no longer provides *ANY* combat table coverage. Instead, it increases the amount the paladin blocks for.

2. Paladins would have a base 15% chance to block. This would be static and never changing. Thus, taking into account DR on dodge and parry, plus boss miss, CTC would be around 45% at most.

3. Holy Shield becomes a short cooldown that guarantees 100% block chance.

4. The amount blocked during Holy Shield is based on Mastery. With 0 mastery, you would block for 10% damage. Mastery could increase this number, say at the end of the expansion, up to 80% even.

5. The cooldown on Holy Shield would be on the order of 10 seconds, with a 5 second uptime. Holy Shield would be off the global cooldown. This way, Paladins would be balanced around having 100% CTC but ONLY 50% of the time.

Adjust the numbers as needed, but my base idea stands. Basically I'm suggesting paladins be balanced around periods of 100% CTC, and periods of up to 45% CTC, but controllable by the paladin.


I like this idea. I would increase the Holy Shield duration / CD to something like 10 / 20 so it feels like more of a choice than just something to macro but overall I think you're on to something.

Without Holy Shield being up you'd still have a 45-50% CTC so it wouldn't be devastating to lose 5 seconds or so of the CD. I'd just want something to penalize a player for macro'ing it.
85 Undead Death Knight
5765
I understood it to mean, as we're talking about effective health, that we have superior magic damage reduction through a short cooldown AMS and thus are fair and balanced niche tanks.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
06/22/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Ahasuerus
He's saying that, for predictable phases where there is high magic damage (e.g. Flame's Orders), "the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive". Presumably, by DK tools he has things like AMS in mind. I have no clue why Paladin Block is mentioned at all in that sentence, since DK Blood Shields do nothing in that same scenario. Whereas if we're going to bring in "DK tools" like AMS, then we should bring in "Paladin tools" as well - the point being that predictable burst from boss is countered by CDs.


Yeah this is what is confusing me. He mentioned block and i tend to think of the dk blood shield as their block.

It does in a roundabout way. Death strike healing is based off of the damage taken in past 5 seconds regardless of source or type, and the mastery is a percentage physical absorb off of the death strike heal. Because of that, magic hits are counted in the damage taken, which increases the heal which increases the physical absorb after the fact.


I get that magic damage creates bigger heals but seeing as thats reactive as opposed to proactive i did not consider that in his comments. That and his comment about block. Block wont help with Flame orders but neither would the shield.

Sorry like i said i was just confused. Thanks for helping clear that up.
58 Gnome Death Knight
0
06/22/2011 01:25 PMPosted by Rieth
Cataclysm bosses aren't designed to work that way. A moderately-geared tank should not be in grave danger from Cho'gall producing 40K melee swings. The danger comes when Cho'gall uses Flaming Destruction for 80K while hitting with a melee swing. In that situation, the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive. And for either the paladin or the DK, stipulating low incoming heals is a bit unrealistic.


Heroic Cho'gall and Sinestra have hit me for 80-100k before (100k being rare), without flaming destruction.

I'm just a wee bit concerned that a Dev is saying that a certain scenario wouldn't happen, and this is being contradicted by tanks in actual HMs. Is there that much disconnect between one Dev team and the other?
85 Night Elf Warrior
0


I thought DK mastery did not work on magic or does the game not count that as magic? Sorry im lost.

He's saying that, for predictable phases where there is high magic damage (e.g. Flame's Orders), "the paladin block doesn't help against the magical damage, but the DK's tools actually can help him survive". Presumably, by DK tools he has things like AMS in mind. I have no clue why Paladin Block is mentioned at all in that sentence, since DK Blood Shields do nothing in that same scenario. Whereas if we're going to bring in "DK tools" like AMS, then we should bring in "Paladin tools" as well - the point being that predictable burst from boss is countered by CDs.


Actually, when it comes to magic damage, the disparity completely flips around. For one, the DK's healing compensation is now "compensating" for additional damage they aren't taking. Every tank is going to eat a magic damage spike for almost the exact same amount. The DK then gets Death Strike self-healing to recover a portion of it. Other tanks just eat it. Granted, realistically that portion is pretty minimal after typical over-healing ratios and rune availability, but still that's still something no other tank can really claim. Now combine that with the powerful CD that is AMS and DKs are the again rocking the "magic tank" niche. When it comes to DKs, magic damage is woefully ineffective against them.

In fact, in order for "magic damage" to threaten DKs, it has to come so fast that any other tank will simply bleed their healers dry trying to keep up, or come in such massive doses that other tanks are quite literally being 1-shotted.
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