We redesigned Holy Shield

85 Human Warrior
10485


I am of the position that this change is bad specifically because it fails to address tank imbalances: both for and against paladins. This is not a problem existing in a vacuum. This change leaves us with a Mastery that will soon become worthless. The lack of other changes that were supposed to accompany this leaves us with equivalent mitigation/avoidance but a self-healing mechanic that is still too strong; this is exacerbated by the removal of the penalty for sitting on HoPo until WoG is off cd, so paladins will once again be using WoG exclusively once threat is established.

I do not want us balanced around WoG-exclusivity. I do not want to see us forced to reforge into piddling and insignificant diminishing-returns-crushed avoidance.

This whole thing is a farce. Everything that should have been done: wasn't. Things that should never have been done: were.


I agree that things can't be done in a vacuum, and that tank balance has to be kept in mind. But keeping balance in mind when making an adjustment isn't the same as using it to justify a change, which some of the arguments seem to do.

That said, I think that Masteries in general could probably use some overhauling, as I suspect that by T13, Warriors will be coming up on the mess that Paladins are currently in, and I worry that Blizzard will do something lazy and obvious like Sunwell Radiance or just add in a steep Diminishing Return, which makes stats meaningless at a certain point, and we all go back to Stam stacking like in Wrath.
85 Human Paladin
11980
Did we at least get the old Holy Shield graphic back?
85 Orc Warlock
12800
06/17/2011 07:27 AMPosted by Jonlo
Did we at least get the old Holy Shield graphic back?

I'm betting it'll look like BoP.
06/17/2011 04:45 AMPosted by Feanorion
Yes, it is a situational buff, but is there no way to make things "more interesting" with a non-warrior-ish feel to it?


Except they don't even feel the same to people who have objectively played both classes any more than any CD feels like any other CD.

Weren't we in agreement in Wrath that STDs and CDs were the one place where tank "homogenization" was generally ok? What has changed?


You also claimed it was another "change pushing us closer and closer to being a warrior". Warriors and paladins play absolutely nothing alike except they both use shields. You have been making this claim since Wrath and it is still laughably ignorant now as it was then.


But the bulk of my displeasure is not what this change does, but what it doesn't do. Ours remains the only hard-capped Mastery.


And it is not supposed to do that. Funny story, I logged into the PTR, copied a premade paladin over, and checked T12 stats (premades are given full T12). Wanna know what my CTC was? 96.4% with kings up. I readily concede some pieces may not have been the general use ones but still, we had some wiggle room. Blizzard even hinted the problem wasn't going to be a problem in T12 so they pushed it to 4.3. So we can happily keep stacking mastery blindly through Firelands.

I thought one of the reasons for mastery was a dial they could easily turn for balance?

Without needing to hit a HoPo finisher to maintain Holy Shield there is now no incentive to NOT sit on HoPo


People keep saying this, doesn't make it true. But to play along...

There is no reason for a warrior to use anything but T-clap and demo shout if threat isn't an issue. There is no reason for a druid to use anything but maul and demo roar if threat isn't an issue. There isn't a reason for DKs to.... well sorry DKs.

Except, ya know, if people want to play the best they possible can and not settle for "meh, whatever". I called you on this before and you claimed you weren't supporting the playstyle but the fact that you continually bring it up after the aforementioned reasoning makes me doubt you.


06/17/2011 04:45 AMPosted by Feanorion
Had this been part of a larger overhaul I would not have had an issue with it. If it were more distinguishable from Shield Block I would not have had an issue with it. If this change somehow kept us from WoG-spamming I would have been tickled.


I doubt any of that. You fear every change or at least your responses on the forums leads one to believe that.
06/17/2011 07:27 AMPosted by Jonlo
Did we at least get the old Holy Shield graphic back?


As of 2 days ago when I was last on the PTR it is just a generic block animation.

Actually just checked it, it was changed to just a bright flash around your shield.

But at least the new AD graphic is amazing :D.
Edited by Barwicka on 6/17/2011 7:46 AM PDT
85 Human Paladin
5440
I'm a little confused with the devs comments. When they say we needed less passive midigation, wasn't Holy Shield our only passive stat or are they taking all of our avoidence stats in there? If HS was our only one then how is taking that away a good thing. I'm not really knowledgable about all of the theorycrafting but looking at the changes it seems like we will be taking more damage but they still aren't fixing how our mastery is scaling. Maybe I'm missing something but I'm just confused by their response didn't completely clear it up for me.
06/17/2011 06:54 AMPosted by Blackardin
It does not add more buttons to push in our rotation,


Pushing a button you didn't push before is not having more buttons to push? Can I ask in what universe this even remotely makes sense.

06/17/2011 06:54 AMPosted by Blackardin
it adds more clunk to it if it were to be incorporated as such.


You wanna know what's clunky? Having to use blood runes for DR but not wanting to use blood runes. That is clunky. Nothing a paladin does is clunky. You press a button, and the effect it causes is exactly the effect you want. The rotation flows with some spells improving other spells and some spells making other spells actually usable.

Clunky doesn't mean stuff you don't like despite how much you try to use that as a definition.

06/17/2011 06:54 AMPosted by Blackardin
We had that "dynamic rotation" at the beginning to the expansion


What was dynamic about CS, something, CS, something, CS, WoG? What was dynamic about our spec defined spell being used when about half your other abilities were on CD? What was dynamic about having absolutely no reason to not mindlessly hit the next button you know was going to be next 5 mins beforehand?

The answer to every single one of those questions is absolutely nothing.

06/17/2011 06:54 AMPosted by Blackardin
and they destroyed it with poor planning and quick "fixes".


lolwut? The paladin playstyle is the best it has ever been. You are not even making sense.

06/17/2011 06:54 AMPosted by Blackardin
It will add nothing to us as a matter of play.


It will add exactly what paladins have been begging for, to play an active role in their mitigation or at least that is the generic response paladins slammed the forums with when WoG was given a CD. "We want to feel like we are in control of our survival, even if it is nothing more than an illusion" was their battlecry. It was repeated so many times I thought someone went crazy and bought 4 accounts with nothing but paladins on them.

06/17/2011 06:54 AMPosted by Blackardin
We have a far superior cool-down for that. It will be macroed and forgotten.


Thank you for proving all the insults I have made at you. It is not really ad hominem when you call someone awful not to disprove their claims (reasoning and logic do a fine enough job at that) but because they are just awful.

Macro it to everything. Play poorly. Half ass it because you can. Just don't come to the forums misusing simple words like clunky and dynamic in a poor attempt to make a point. At least try to make sense when you converse with people, at the very least Fean is kind enough to do that.
80 Blood Elf Paladin
1420
Actually we will be basically fine for this tier without a change to mastery. If anything, we get to have our cake and eat it in t12 at the level where people will actually consider their choices of stats. Which is why it's not being prioritised anyway.

There's nothing stupid about the Holy Shield change. It's logical and awesome.


Do you think it's so awesome that you'll barely noticing it doing anything most of the time? I'm not saying it's not a minor buff when used correctly, but there's hardly anything awesome or exciting about it.
06/17/2011 08:32 AMPosted by Marrs
Do you think it's so awesome that you'll barely noticing it doing anything most of the time? I'm not saying it's not a minor buff when used correctly, but there's hardly anything awesome or exciting about it.


Do you notice having up or not now is basically the same idea though.

It will be more noticeable bouncing between 30% and 50% DR from block and like you said can be a small buff when used correctly. So outside of keyboard space, what isn't sexay about a small buff you can feel and the feeling that you are contributing to your own survival?
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
can someone point to a current fight where simply macroing it to go off every 30 seconds would not result in about the same benefit as having it as a separate key?

cause thats the issue i have with shield block... i can never find a good reason to save it for the 6 second spell damage reduction. (edited) meant to say, its hard in most cases to time it to land when needed.
Edited by Xurk on 6/17/2011 8:49 AM PDT
06/17/2011 08:46 AMPosted by Xurk
can someone point to a current fight where simply macroing it to go off every 30 seconds would not result in about the same benefit as having it as a separate key?


Halfus, TotFW, Maloriak, Magmaw, Cho'gall, Nef, Blind dragon, Double Dragon, AC, just to name a few.

cause thats the issue i have with shield block... i can never find a good reason to save it for the 6% spell damage reduction.


6%????????
80 Blood Elf Paladin
1420
Do you think it's so awesome that you'll barely noticing it doing anything most of the time? I'm not saying it's not a minor buff when used correctly, but there's hardly anything awesome or exciting about it.


Do you notice having up or not now is basically the same idea though.

It will be more noticeable bouncing between 30% and 50% DR from block and like you said can be a small buff when used correctly. So outside of keyboard space, what isn't sexay about a small buff you can feel and the feeling that you are contributing to your own survival?


It just feels very, very meh to me. I'd almost rather the devs—if they have their hearts set on changing something—go back to giving HS charges. Make the charges more dynamic and something to monitor like other procs. This is just a boring change and feels more maintenancy than anything. It's a tedious change as it is now and not one I'm going to enjoy monitoring while raid leading.
Edited by Marrs on 6/17/2011 9:04 AM PDT
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
Halfus. no saving it wont matter, use it right off the bat then as often as you can.
temple. only matters when you jump back to nature to tank his ultimate, and you would be off cooldown most likely anyway, so spam it the rest of the time would be the same result.
mal. spam it if you are adds tank, spam it if you are main tank.
cho'gall. I can see this one, its useless during flames orders, so save it until shadows orders.
nef. useless to save it, spam it.
atramedes. useless to save it except in air phase, spam it when in ground phase.
val and ther, useless to save it except during transitions, spam it.
council. useless to save it except during transitions, spam it.

this is what i mean. in all those fights, the only place that timing will have any real impact is cho'gall, because the rest of those bosses, their bursts are spell damage. the only thing spamming does is cost you some uptime when the bosses are in a transition.

and i edited the 6% thing. 6 second duration is too short in most cases to have any real impact. things like crackle can only be estimated, there is no guarantee you will actually time it right.
a fight like council, assuming you are tanking arion, it would be nice to save it for an uninterrupted lightning blast, or maybe a bad ignatious shield break + flame torrent, but both of those are highly dependent on raid performance.
06/17/2011 08:57 AMPosted by Marrs
It just feels very, very meh to me.


Understandable, as it is not a super massive ZOMG buff. But aren't we tanks all about stacking small gains.
:D


if they have their hearts set on changing something go back to giving HS charges. Make the charges more dynamic and something to monitor like other procs.


Isn't that just making it more maintenancy though? Would you also not have to monitor the procs drawing your attention from raid leading?

I am just trying to figure out your mindset here.
80 Blood Elf Paladin
1420
06/17/2011 09:05 AMPosted by Barwicka
It just feels very, very meh to me.


if they have their hearts set on changing something go back to giving HS charges. Make the charges more dynamic and something to monitor like other procs.


Isn't that just making it more maintenancy though? Would you also not have to monitor the procs drawing your attention from raid leading?

I am just trying to figure out your mindset here.


If it had charges it might be easier to plan ahead on when to use it and what to use it against. I'm not saying the 4.2 version isn't going to be the same as I just described as far as effectiveness, it's just that the 10 second window and 20 sec CD are so short. It really feels like something extra to do for the sake of just pushing a button.

If I had the dev's ears, I'd ask them to nerf the current version of holy shield and give me some extra damage dealing proc to use to be honest. Did I mention I hate healing myself as tank? So yeah, WoG would go away. That's my mindset.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
Buff/nerf has nothing to do with why this is a bad, horrible, and stupid change. We did not need yet another cd. We didn't need yet another warrior-ish ability making it harder and harder to seperate and distinguish between the classes.


Sorry fean but you know me. I love tanking cds and love the thought of having more. Im a fan of the cd tanking model =)

That said i hope they fix our mastery soon.
Puts things into a very interesting perspective for Prot Paladins.

Do I continue to stack mastery to 102.4% damage to smooth damage intake and get the most out of the CD, or do I begin stacking avoidance to the now much higher breakpoint, providing potentially more overall damage reduction but reducing the effectiveness of this new cooldown and having a more spikey damage intake.


Tough choice.


I see no reason to balance my rating for when I dont need the extra DR (and am not using my HS cd). If anything i think we should be balancing our ratings based on when we do need the extra dr (and HS is up) which means the point of where avoidance=mastery went down some.

Seems like an easy choice to me.

06/17/2011 02:03 AMPosted by Slashlove
The most relevant choice/tradeoff for Progression content is Stamina.


Troll! =P

06/17/2011 03:42 AMPosted by Sunhawk
having been a tank since day 1 of BC and only quitting just this pats February because of burn out. i can say this, every paladin and his mother will macro new holy shield away to shield of righteousness. 10 seconds of 20% more block value is just worthless. you may never block ever! each and every time you use holy shield between now and Blizzard's next MMO.


I did some quick math in another thread and the DR (Damage reduction) was about where you find a trinket. Are your trinkets worthless and do you macro them?

My block is 55%.

(55%*.5-55%*.3)=11.01%
In comparision to what we have now
(55*.5-55*.4)=5.49% damage reduction

My JC trinket gives me 600 dodge
at 1400 dodge i have 7.36% diminished dodge
With my trinket popped its a 6.12% dodge increase

Still think its worthless and gonna waste it by macroing it?

Its a very nice buff.
06/17/2011 06:54 AMPosted by Blackardin
Fenn is absolutely correct in his personal concern about this. We do not need another CD, especially a weak one. Please stop mucking up these threads with your vile insults and ridiculous assertions.


Its not a weak cd. Its on par with a trinket.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 6/17/2011 9:48 AM PDT
85 Draenei Paladin
4475
I don't like the change. 40% blocked all the time is far better than 30% blocked most of the time and 50% blocked some of the time. I have enough cooldown abilities to remember to use currently - I don't need another one. What an @ssinine waste of developer time.

Why would they want to make things more difficult for the least popular job type in the most popular PvE group content level?
80 Blood Elf Paladin
1420
"Its not a weak cd. Its on par with a trinket"

I don't want 3 trinkets to manage on top of my CDs
Edited by Marrs on 6/17/2011 10:00 AM PDT
85 Orc Warlock
12800
I don't like the change. 40% blocked all the time is far better than 30% blocked most of the time and 50% blocked some of the time.

Remember that next time a mob has an enrage/frenzy ability, because you're wrong.

I have enough cooldown abilities to remember to use currently - I don't need another one. What an @ssinine waste of developer time.

You not being good enough at using cooldowns isn't a good reason for Holy Shield to be passive. My Shaman is bad at using Mana Tide effectively, so clearly the best solution is to remove Mana Tide and just give me a sizeable regen boost.
80 Blood Elf Paladin
1420
06/17/2011 10:01 AMPosted by Awanawa
I don't like the change. 40% blocked all the time is far better than 30% blocked most of the time and 50% blocked some of the time.

Remember that next time a mob has an enrage/frenzy ability, because you're wrong.

I have enough cooldown abilities to remember to use currently - I don't need another one. What an @ssinine waste of developer time.

You not being good enough at using cooldowns isn't a good reason for Holy Shield to be passive. My Shaman is bad at using Mana Tide effectively, so clearly the best solution is to remove Mana Tide and just give me a sizeable regen boost.


When did everyone agree that tanking should be about having more and more CDs. I just think it's lazy design. Someone else said it best when they compared it to having a 3rd trinket. For me, it's a play-style difference that you like and I don't. No need to call someone else a bad though. Keep it civil.
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